undisciplinated students

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Manny, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    How do you deal with undisciplinated or insubordinate students? I had a bad situation some days ago teaching TKD at my sambonim's dojang, I am the senior instructor and tried to disciplinate a young man (yellow belt) who where very cocky and unrespectful or unruly to me, so I asked him in a polite way to stay back and take a sit, he in a rebel way told me he was not going back and leave the mat and take a seat on a chair and gave me a not so nice look.

    I command him againg to get inside the mat aand take a seat at the back of the dojang, he refused again and then I told him: With that maners I don't want you anymore in my class (the class I teach), he only asnwered: What ever....

    At the end of the class I told the other students (this guy was listening) no matter sambonim, or instructor or co-studente who was in charge of the class he/she deserve all the respect and cooperation of the students inside the mat, and told them one saying my master has... "If you want to give commands you must learn to obey first.

    In my more than 20+ years of TKD I never been unrespctfull with any of my teachers/sambonims/senseis, I always obeyed no matter what to my commander, when I was younger if one disobeyed to sambonim you could be beaten or expulsed from dojang.

    Manny
     
  2. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    If he doesnt want to be there, disciplining him and demanding obedience will not make him want to be there, and it will not make him want to comply.
    You have to find a common ground of some sort - Or find some way to promote right rather than focus entirely on punishing wrong. Most of the time, at least.
    Ill leave it at that, i think.

    Also, he may not be upset with you, or training. He may be upset with the world.
     
  3. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    I would do the same. Tell the student to sit out. If he refused, class would stop for all until he complied. I think peer pressure would make him comply. The next step would be to call the parents. Periodically I tell students that if a senior asks or tells them to do something they have 2 choices. Either comply or leave. That way if they ever think they are asked to do something that could cause harm or was morally wrong they could refuse, but had to leave. I think there is an important life lesson there when dealing with authority. Any issue can be taken up with the instructors.
     
  4. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    This guy is a doctor around 24 or 26 years old, fully healthy and with no mental problems only a behaivor issues, this was the first bad thing I have with him, I always behave inside and outside the dojang, I treat kids and adults with full respect, I call my students or my sambonims students as Sir o Mr or by the last name with all the respect because that'0s the way I was taught, I always ask things with a Please and never in my life till then had to punish nor physically or verbaly anyone.

    Last night sambonim asked me to acept again this young guy telling that he has some behavoir problems and that he had something alike like I had with this fellow but sambonim thinks that this behavoir will change, this guys is pretty coky I must say. Sambonim thinks he will fix himself with time.

    What did I? Very simple I bow and tell sambonim that if he wanted me to acept this guy again in class I will do it, because he is my master and I fully respect him and his way of thinking. I just told him I don't want another episode of insubordination.

    Manny
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd pull him out for a private conversation. Explain that if he is to be a part of the program, he must follow the rules (and the rules need to be clearly defined) and that if he can't or won't follow the rules, he'll need to find another school.
     
  6. harlan

    harlan 2nd Black Belt

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    LOL! Ah....full of piss and vinegar...and lacking humility. No excuse in this case: respect or the door (since you can't very well bend him over your knee for a spanking, and a bloody nose would just escalate the situation).

     
  7. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    This guy is a doctor? That's a scary thought.

    In no uncertain terms, it's time for a closed-door, come-to-jeebuz session with him. If that were my student, I would tell him in no uncertain terms that behavior like that is unacceptable. Due to his behavior on the floor that night, he is on probation and is denied permission to test at our next scheduled testing. In addition, he will apologize to the instructor and the students at the beginning of the next class. If there is another incident, he's gone.

    If he doesn't like that, point to the door and say, "Don't let it hit you in the butt on the way out." No one needs students like that in their school. At age 26 or whatever, he shouldn't be throwing temper tantrums like a 5 year old in a sandbox. Actions have consequences and he damn sure needs to learn that.
     
  8. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Oh man, back when I was a kid doing karate our Sensei was the ultimate in old school discipline Cane in class, knuckle pushups on the asphalt basketball court, laps on the track, extending a kick in perfect form and holding it [and other isometric based killers], he had a million creative ways. Let it be known, my Seido class was taught at my private Anglican prep school in Jamaica in the 80's.

    As I said in another thread, a kid or several kids cried every day. But the school was building a team.
     
  9. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    26... And you guys are worried about youth BB.... We have not had a 5 year old do that let alone a 26 year old Doctor!
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    That's why I am a fan of guidelines, not rules. There are always exceptions.

    Honestly, I think this persons problem is likely more about ego than about discipline.
     
  11. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    I agree with you but remember Im the instructor and this guy is my sambonim student, in some way sambonim must tell this guy to apologice about his behaivor to me and problem solved. I bow to my master and had to acept this person back in my class. If this person ofered me an apology I will acept it and problem solved but what if this guy do it again? Next time I will have to drag him out of dojang or kick his #%& off?

    Manny
     
  12. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    I agree with you but remember Im the instructor and this guy is my sambonim student, in some way sambonim must tell this guy to apologice about his behaivor to me and problem solved. I bow to my master and had to acept this person back in my class. If this person ofered me an apology I will acept it and problem solved but what if this guy do it again? Next time I will have to drag him out of dojang or kick his #%& off?

    Manny
     
  13. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    You hit the nail.

    Manny
     
  14. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Your instructor needs to "have your Back" on this. He can do it directly with this student or address all students with a General rule that if anyone teaches for him and a stuent does not show the instructor the proper levels of courtesy they will be required to leave the class. Any isues can be addressed later.
     
  15. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    Agree with this, he has to have your back. Students will pick up on division quickly.

    For a 25 year old to have a tantrum, give them one strike or your out. Kids, I could understand giving them a few warnings. But an adult, I feel embarrassed for him.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
     
  16. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Looks to me like there are two problems. You have a problem with the student which may or may not resolve itself and a problem with your master who seems unwilling to take any disciplinary action. Asking you to take the student back, without any intervention on his part, is a cop out.

    My immediate response was a dummy spit. I would have tossed him out on the spot. That would have been wrong. With hindsight, I would have set the class something to practise and taken the guy aside to ask him what was wrong. If the issue couldn't be resolved on the spot I would be asking him to pack up for the day and refer it to the master. That is my two cents worth for you if he does it again.

    But, for me, the more worrying thing was the response of your master. If one of my guys came to me and told me someone was giving him grief I would be going straight to the student. One warning, shape up or ship out. So, why didn't your master do that? Could it be the student's fees are more important than class discipline and respect? :asian:
     
  17. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    .

    It could be, I never felt I was doing somethinmg wrong when I told the guy to not come anymore to my class (however if he looked at me latter and apologize I will took this like a true gentelman gesture and maybe I will let him know everithing is fine but never ever unsubordinate to the instructor), what I felt out of contest was my master tried to softhening the thing and asking me to acpet this guy again with cero pologize from the guy and wihtout my master giving him a warning.

    Maybe I am to crazy about the thing but as long as I been taught a studente or a lower belt never has to insoburdinate to a higer rank and respect is everithing inside (and outside) the dojang/dojo. I would never ever be contrary to my master or master's wife (4th dan), I know what's my place inside the dojang and know I have to handle myself with respct and courtesy to the others including my fellow clasemates and the publiuc in general.

    Manny
     
  18. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Once a student openly defys you in class it is time to cut them loose. You can take him aside and tell him to take a break from class until such time that he is willing to learn and show proper respect. If you do nothing then it will undermine your authority and invite possible further disrespect from others. It is not worth potentially losing 10 good students just to keep 1 bad one.
     
  19. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    That is the way I think about it, but we must remeber I am only an instructor, and the student pays his fee to my sambonim, his fee and his wife too. One thing I have to tell you, since the insident this guy only came to class once, he has not comeback (to my class) only his wife two things must hapen: a) He realices that maybe things will never be the same with me or maybe his work schedule does n ot allow him to come by my class.

    I will not tolerate another insubordination of this guy, I had to acept him in my class because my sambonim requested it to me, I did not like this without an apology from the studente but things are this way and I must obey my master.

    Manny
     
  20. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    Your instructor may not be aware of the entire situation. I would suggest a private conference with him.

    However, in my opinion, your instructor should have backed you up instead of siding with the student. And no matter whose student he is, if he is in a class that *I* am responsible for teaching, his butt would be off the floor immediately for behavior like that.123
     

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