Unbreakable combat cane and walking stick? Which one?

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by kip42, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. kip42

    kip42 Yellow Belt

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    I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon.

    I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?

    Found these

    http://www.combatcanes.com/Why_Canes_.html

    I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.

    http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html


    http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html

    Any other ideas?


    I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.
     
  2. Skpotamus

    Skpotamus Brown Belt

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    The cold steel city stick would probably be my first choice, although I do know at least one LEO who mentioned that he'd arrest anyone carrying a CS city stick.

    Your best bet would probably be a rattan one. I'd probably buy one of the 54" staffs that the dog brothers sell, cut it to length, add a handle to it, oil it so it's stronger and heavier and then add some polypropylene to it so it looks like a nice walking cane. http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=119 If the sticks can last through them beating each other full force with them pretty regularly, it should last for most stuff you're going to do with it.
     
  3. Ken Morgan

    Ken Morgan Senior Master

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  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Senior Master

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    Why do you need it? Not why do you want it, but based on your post, why do you need it?

    If you get kicked out for carrying a weapon, don't go in there with a damn weapon! Don't look for ways to circumvent the rules or the law, you have no need.

    Why, are you expecting to get attacked every three seconds? Seriously, get some reality, and lose the paranoia. Personally I will have no part in humouring or encouraging you.

    Seriously? You will have a cane for when you can have a gun and don't need it?!? That doesn't even make sense! Lose the fantasy, lose the paranoia, and get some reality.

    Normally I'd say good, but here, I will have no part in encouraging you. Point your instructor towards this thread, and the others you have posted, if they still want to teach you, fine. Personally, I'd sit you down for a very long chat, and see what your future may hold.
     
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  5. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    I was thinking the same thing myself. He keeps posting nearly identical threads week after week that basically fall into two categories.

    1. I want a stick I can carry around that no one will realize is actually a weapon.
    2. I want a "real" sword, although I don't intend to use it in any way.

    I don't think he is taking classes. I think he might be watching DVDs, but that's not at all the same thing.

    News flash Kip, a trained fighter will always see a stick as a weapon no matter what shape it is or who's carrying it. A trained fighter will recognize it immediately, because he's looking for something to hit you with, and you happen to be holding something right there. If you bring a stick to a self defense situation and you have no training and no concept of reality, your opponent will simply take it away and shove it up your ***. Same with a sword. Same with a gun.

    Some teenage kids tried to rob one of the pizza places I used to work at with a rifle one day. They came in with masks on and started shouting and pointing it at people, and the rough men who worked their laughed in their faces and told them to go home before they got their own rifle shoved up their asses. Carrying a weapon doesn't make you a bad ***. Knowing how to use one might, but that requires the serious study I don't believe you are engaging in.

    Good luck to Kip. But to me he sounds like a delusional fan boy or a deliberate troll. Who cares what stick he buys off the internet? He's just going to repost this thread next week all over again.


    -Rob
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Don't waste your money. Go to a Farm and Feed store and buy a "Stock Cane." They're hickory (which is pretty much synonymous with "unbreakable").

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    It had better be against a local ordinance or it will get challenged in court and probably thrown out.

    I disagree. Unless the rattan shaft has some sort of weighted head, then a more traditional wood works better in my experience.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Why is it any of our business to judge his 'need'? To be honest, I don't want any body judging whether or not I "need" something and I doubt you do either.


    I disagree. Self Defense with a weapon is superior to SD without one. Weapons are so that the smaller, weaker, less well trained, and out-numbered have a chance against the stronger, larger, better trained, and more numerous. So it makes sense to look for one that is legal in a given area. This is fairly common here in the U.S. where there are some locations in which firearms (for instance) are restricted or prohibited but a person interested in Self Defense might still want to have some legal recourse such as a stick.


    Do you carry Fire Insurance on your house? Why are you expecting your home to burn down any second; lose the paranoia! Do you carry Medical Insurance? Why are you expecting to contract a life threatening illness every second; lose the paranoia! Seriously now, a SD weapon is not because you're "expecting" to get attacked at any second, it's because you can't predict when you might be. Just like your Fire and Life Insurance. It's nothing more than forethought and preparation.


    Reality? Is that the same reality where LEOs only carry a gun because they don't ever need lower force options such as a baton, stun-gun, or pepper spray? The reality is that if you are considering carrying a SD weapon capable of deadly force then it also makes sense to consider (at the minimum "consider") carrying something capable of lower Force levels.


    "Not encouraging" is not synonymous with lambasting. Maybe you didn't intend it, but the tone of this post is condescending and adversarial, anything but helpful. It's not consistent with your usually polite and helpful posts.


    Please do.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    More often than not, this is true. But I've also known a lot of "trained fighters" who glance past canes without a second look in normal, every day, life. LEOs are more likely to see a cane as a potential weapon in my experience.


    You know, unless he's carrying his own.


    Horsefeathers. While training certainly (and often dramatically) increases your capabilities of use and your odds of effectively using a weapon in Self Defense, it is simply untrue that not having training will only result in the weapon being taken away and used against you. This becomes more true as the weapon increases in lethality and simplicity of use. A base ball bat is not simplistic to take away from someone who has it cocked back and is ready to triple-play your skull. But is is a little bit less difficult than a knife. And, as for a gun, I'm still looking for any, even one, instance where a person who was fully prepared to use a firearm in self defense (as opposed to waving it around and betting on simple intimidation) had it "taken away and used against them" regardless of their training. Seriously, where's the examples? There was one fella a few years back who offered a substantial cash reward for anyone who could come up with one verifiable account. The cash went unclaimed.


    They were counting on intimidation and had their bluff called. And that's all it was, a bluff. Had they come in and actually started pulling the trigger, those rough men would have been perforated and you would, instead, be recounting the story of the massacre you lived through.


    No, it doesn't require "serious study." It requires a willingness to use it. I've lost track the number of stories of some yahoo with little-to-no training shooting a bunch of people. Same for stories of some lunatic on a stabbing rampage. Just today I was listening to a news story about a robbery victim in the ICU from a hammer. None of the users had any "serious study" under their belts (I've never even heard of "Claw-Hammer Fu"). What they did have was a willingness to use the weapon to hurt someone else. "Serious study" is for people like me who want a hobby or an "edge" over someone else who has a weapon and the intention to use it.


    He might be, but that doesn't mean that we should post stuff that isn't true in an effort to discourage him.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  10. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    You're right Kirk. I was conflating serious study with the willingness to use the weapon, and that's not correct. Thank you for correcting me. The reason I took that stance is because my exposure to this particular poster makes me think he's only about fantasy and bluffing, and would be on the receiving end of his own stick, which is why I posted that anecdote. But you're right, I was wrong. An untrained person who's willing to do violence is definitely a greater danger than a trained person who is not. But here, I see an untrained person with no real understanding of violence at all.-Rob
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Senior Master

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    Hi Kirk,

    Firstly, I didn't judge his needs, I asked what they were. And my question was based on his previous posting, as well as the content of his post here. But really, it's got little to do with judging, it's more about being a responsible member here, and providing the best advice that I can, based on all knowledge I have... and if that advice amounts to "grow up", that's what I'll give.

    With the case of yourself, you and your experience with weaponry are known, and frankly you would never post such a question in the way Kip has, so judging your needs wouldn't enter into it.

    I'm not arguing that self defence with a weapon can be superior, but if you are purposefully carrying an item specifically to use it as a weapon, self defence or not, then we start to get into real iffy territory legally speaking. Buying something specifically as a "super unbreakable combat cane", especially if he's after something that can be disguised as a "handicap looking cane", we're into police questioning his motives...

    "So, you're handicapped?"
    "No, I just carry this cane for self defence"
    "You don't think that making yourself look weaker may put you in more danger of being attacked?"
    "That's why I have my cane"

    And heaven help him if and/or when they find this thread with him asking for it (and the other threads he's started....)

    And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?

    Sorry, Kirk, I've heard this argument far too many times to be taken in by it (and, for the record, the answer to most insurance questions for me is "no"). There is a big difference between having insurance for an unforseen event and going out and getting a deliberately intended weapon to carry with you, circumventing the legal requirements wherever you go. Insurance isn't paranoia, feeling you need a weapon with you at all times is.

    You seriously kick off Kip's adrenaline, and even if he's got both, he'll reach for the gun every time. Why? Because he's hardwired to go for the most powerful thing available against a threat (same as everyone), and that will not be the lower force option. The conscious mind goes straight out the window, so logic can't be applied here. Really, I'd suggest not carrying either, but that's me. That's why I was asking how dangerous the area that Kip lives in is, and how much violence he sees daily, especially as regards to himself being the target.

    Yeah, that's a very fair call. But, as with Thesemindz, my take here is coloured by my previous experience with Kip and his posts. He comes back every few months to ask the same questions he's asked before, never taking into account any answers, and always filled with this "super martial arts" fantasy, going up against the evils of the world. If he does show a change to that, I'm more than willing to help, but so far that has yet to be seen. For instance he just started another thread yesterday (same time as this one) asking again a question he's already had answered 6 months ago.
     
  12. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    While I've grown to appreciate your viewpoints on carrying weapons, I don't agree with them-I do largely agree with you about Kip.

    I carry a cane-not all the time,and I don't need it to walk...yet..but I'm anticipating that if I live another 15 years it might be a help to me that way. I haven't needed to use it for self defense...yet, though my knee does trouble me enough to occasionally be glad to have the things. In the meantime, I do have a weapon that I'm trained to use, that is inoccuous and legal to carry, can be used in a non-lethal fashion,serves as another sort of tool when not as a weapon, and I can take pretty much everywhere, unlike my guns and knives.

    I carry a knife-not all the time, but pretty close. I use it to cut fruit, boxes, string, cables, cable ties, wires, meat on occasion. I've gutted and cleaned fish, rabbits, squirrels,turkeys, goats, coyotes, feral hogs, wild boar, javelina, chickens, lizards, snakes, deer,antelope, elk, and bison with it. I haven't needed to use these particular knives for self-defense....yet. In the meantime, I have a weapon that I'm trained to use, is inoccuous and legal for me to carry,is limited in non lethal uses, and I can take just about anywhere.

    I carry a gun-not all the time, but pretty close. When it comes to the decision to put it on and carry it, it has only one use, and the consequences of using it are of an pentultimate nature. While I've used firearms: pistols, knives and rifles-to kill rabbits, squirrels, coyotes, turkeys,wild boars, feral hogs, javelina, antelope, deer,bison(this one raised as livestock, and dispatched at close range for butchering, not on a hunt) and elk, I haven't had to use one for self defense....yet.

    So, yeah, he wants to walk around with a cane-if he's 16, like it sounds, rather than 51 like me, he'll look suspicious without a limp. But it's a safer choice all around than a gun or a knife-though I understand that those aren't options where you are......

    ...in that regard, I'd go with Mr. Lawson's advice: nothing beats a nice piece of hickory, and it's prettier than anything Cold Steel produces, and doesn't look as suspicious.
     
  13. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    For a good quality walking stick with self defense in mind, check out Jimmo the Cane Man:

    Jimmo has MS, but refuses to let the world pass him by...he knows of what he sells. Good guy, great products.

    http://www.caneman2.com/
     
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Fair enough.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I do. Even when I have a "superior" weapon such as a firearm, I still usually have my cane.


    To be honest, I think you and I already did this dance. Thread should be in the archives somewhere.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. Skpotamus

    Skpotamus Brown Belt

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    Well, what an officer can arrest you for vs what is the law are two totally different things. We've had a series of prosecutors who took the stance of "when in doubt, arrest and let the courts decide," along with a lot of sheriffs and city PD chiefs who feel the same way. Heck, they can seize weapons without arresting you "for public safety", then it's a pain to get them back. (story: I was in a car wreck, knocked out, ER docs found my pocket 38, turned it over to police, it was a matter of months before I got it back even though there was no crime committed).

    re: material choice, well, that depends on the purpose. A hardwoods stick doesn't flex like rattan, meaning it does a lot more damage when you strike something with it. Making it great for smacking meat. It also chips and splinters when it breaks, which is bad for training (really sucks when your hickory bo staff breaks during a hard drill and you get splinters in your face and hand, at least for me it did :( ). For hiking (his stated purpose), well, the rattan is a LOT lighter. http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/lacanne_stick.htm here compares various types of sticks the same length, the rattan is less than half the weight of hickory, making it a good choice for a hiking stick IMHO, simply based on the fact that most of what you'll be doing with a hiking stick is knocking down cobwebs and getting stickers out of your way. But still give you a good stick to whomp with and something you can train with as well (taking lots of hits before it breaks, IME, rattan lasts longer than hardwoods). Plus, I like to oil and burn my rattan, making some pretty patterns (gotta look good while I'm getting beaten senseless in class :ultracool )
     
  17. Skpotamus

    Skpotamus Brown Belt

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    I'm not kirk, but I'd thought I'd butt in and add my own two cents. I see you are from Australia, I'm not sure what the laws are in your country, so perhaps our views are colored by our environments? the US (at least some parts), tend to be a bit more conservative on self defense issues. Carrying a cane for self defense wouldn't be an automatic "go directly to jail" card. Heck, I have a license to carry issued by the state that lets me carry my handgun on me at all times (with some exceptions). Doesn't mean that if I use it I'll go to jail and have it argued that I was looking for trouble. When the SHTF, your ACTIONS are judged based on what happened at the time. Not necessarily the means and methods. If you can clearly show that you were acting defensively, then only used the level of force needed to defend yourself (and didn't cross the line to punitive actions), then you're probably going to be ok. It's those grey areas that figuratively murder people in court, when they can't present a good argument as to why they acted the way they did.

    Now, I haven't had any experience with the OP before this, but wanting to have a self defense option available to you when the government or property owner has disarmed you is a common theme (hence so many companies coming up with less lethal self defense options, like pepper spray, tasers, collapsible batons, combat pens, etc). Heck, that's why there ARE combat canes available and arts teaching how to use them for SD. Now, being legally handicapped or not doesn't mean you can't carry a cane. Who's to say you didn't twist your ankle at martial arts the day before or while jogging and need some support for that ankle? Couldn't the theoretical after action conversation sound like this:
    "So you're handicapped?
    No, I twisted my ankle the other day and wanted the cane to help support me
    Why did you use the cane on your attacker(s)?
    Well, officer, I thought he/they were going to kill me, there were more than one of them/they were a lot bigger than me/they had a weapon, I tried to get them to leave me alone, even yelled for help when they attacked me, I was terrified, and I didn't think I could outrun them.
    Well, according to my magical internet watcher that knows everything a person has ever done on the internet instantly, an anonymous person named skpotamus posted a link on martialtalk.com about using this exact argument for carrying a cane for self defense.
    Well officer, if you can prove that I am skpotamus, AND that my ankle didn't get hurt the other day, then I guess the only thing I can say is that I carried it for self defense, the circumstances don't change though, I was attacked by a person(s) that I thought were going to kill me, I called for help, I couldn't get away, hence my actions" Do you think that would be deficient in proving your case for having the cane other than SD? Here in the US, it probably would. Perhaps not in Australia?

    That's not been my experience. Most people freeze up and don't do anything unless they've had training. The more training you have, the better your odds of surviving, and using the correct tool for the situation at hand. Police don't routinely shoot people when they could have used a stun gun or baton to end the situation. And most LEO's are lacking in the training dept. (my local PD's require an 8 hour training course on non lethal take downs and force continuum's when they start as a LEO, then nothing after that, only have to shoot their gun once a year). My experience has been that you tend to use whats in your hands first, then worry about escalating if that doesn't work.


    As always, YMMV.
     
  18. Skpotamus

    Skpotamus Brown Belt

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    I'm not kirk, but I'd thought I'd butt in and add my own two cents. I see you are from Australia, I'm not sure what the laws are in your country, so perhaps our views are colored by our environments? the US (at least some parts), tend to be a bit more conservative on self defense issues. Carrying a cane for self defense wouldn't be an automatic "go directly to jail" card. Heck, I have a license to carry issued by the state that lets me carry my handgun on me at all times (with some exceptions). Doesn't mean that if I use it I'll go to jail and have it argued that I was looking for trouble. When the SHTF, your ACTIONS are judged based on what happened at the time. Not necessarily the means and methods. If you can clearly show that you were acting defensively, then only used the level of force needed to defend yourself (and didn't cross the line to punitive actions), then you're probably going to be ok. It's those grey areas that figuratively murder people in court, when they can't present a good argument as to why they acted the way they did.

    Now, I haven't had any experience with the OP before this, but wanting to have a self defense option available to you when the government or property owner has disarmed you is a common theme (hence so many companies coming up with less lethal self defense options, like pepper spray, tasers, collapsible batons, combat pens, etc). Heck, that's why there ARE combat canes available and arts teaching how to use them for SD. Now, being legally handicapped or not doesn't mean you can't carry a cane. Who's to say you didn't twist your ankle at martial arts the day before or while jogging and need some support for that ankle? Couldn't the theoretical after action conversation sound like this:
    "So you're handicapped?
    No, I twisted my ankle the other day and wanted the cane to help support me
    Why did you use the cane on your attacker(s)?
    Well, officer, I thought he/they were going to kill me, there were more than one of them/they were a lot bigger than me/they had a weapon, I tried to get them to leave me alone, even yelled for help when they attacked me, I was terrified, and I didn't think I could outrun them.
    Well, according to my magical internet watcher that knows everything a person has ever done on the internet instantly, an anonymous person named skpotamus posted a link on martialtalk.com about using this exact argument for carrying a cane for self defense.
    Well officer, if you can prove that I am skpotamus, AND that my ankle didn't get hurt the other day, then I guess the only thing I can say is that I carried it for self defense, the circumstances don't change though, I was attacked by a person(s) that I thought were going to kill me, I called for help, I couldn't get away, hence my actions" Do you think that would be deficient in proving your case for having the cane other than SD? Here in the US, it probably would. Perhaps not in Australia?

    That's not been my experience. Most people freeze up and don't do anything unless they've had training. The more training you have, the better your odds of surviving, and using the correct tool for the situation at hand. Police don't routinely shoot people when they could have used a stun gun or baton to end the situation. And most LEO's are lacking in the training dept. (my local PD's require an 8 hour training course on non lethal take downs and force continuum's when they start as a LEO, then nothing after that, only have to shoot their gun once a year). My experience has been that you tend to use whats in your hands first, then worry about escalating if that doesn't work.


    Train hard, Stay safe and as always, YMMV.
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You are completely correct here. I was seriously considering a similar followup but it looks like you already did it for me. :)

    I think we all have stories where cops seize stuff "just 'cuz they can" or do fishing expedition stops.

    Of course, this is Abuse Under Color of Authority, but the system is currently configured so that it is hard-to-impossible to rectify these sort of wrongs.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    OK, I've been mulling this over in my mind. I knew that I'd want to talk about it but I wanted some time to consider where I was going to go with it first. So here goes.

    When I started many moons ago I had the same sort of questions. While it is true that I didn't post my questions on the Internet, I did have some similar ones. I did private research and study and, if required, discretely inquired of trusted & experienced sources.

    I quickly learned that, yes indeed, a firearm is top of the food chain for effective self defense having the easiest use, lowest learning curve, and highest Force potential. However, it is also true that carrying a firearm was simply not always an option because of legal restrictions. Even now that I have a concealed carry writ (in Ohio it is a CHL; "Concealed Handgun License"), there are still many places where a firearm is restricted or not permitted.

    My study lead me to conclude that, further, a weapon of some sort, usually any weapon, offers substantial advantages over bare-handed self defense. Of the myriad of potential self defense weapons, I found that the two most effective (for self defense) and easily over-looked legal alternatives were in the classes of "sharp and pointy" of varying lengths and "bludgeony" of varying configurations.

    Now, while "sharp and pointy" is legal these tools are still often restricted. For instance, I may not have a knife (never mind a sword) in a Courthouse, Police Station, Airport, Mental Health facilities, etc. In short, while less so than a firearm, most people easily identify a knife as a "potential weapon."

    Clubs, on the other hand, are more easily overlooked. While expandable batons (like ASP), LEO PR24 baton, or even the old "Constables Truncheon" are synonymous with "weapon" to most people, most other "sticks" aren't. There are many "disguised" sticks suggestions I've seen offered over the years. Some examples include a high-impact poly Chinese flutes and a hardwood/poly painted magician's "wand." But of them all, I found the cane and the umbrella are the most over-looked. Having experimented with the umbrella and studied extant literature, I am convinced that an umbrella is poorly suited for bludgeoning but makes a decent thrusting & hooking tool. With various tweaks it can be made to perform "less poorly" as a bludgeon but it's still not the forte of the tool. This leaves the cane. I have some friends who have concluded that the universality of the tool coupled with the "go anywhere" nature makes it (to quote) the "perfect weapon." I don't agree that it is 'perfect' but it does have several advantages in modern society.

    Since that time I have made a study of the stick, the knife, and the gun. When I can legally, I have a firearm either on my person or easily accessible nearby. I usually have a knife. I almost always have a cane. Yes, if you've read carefully, you'll note that there are some times which I will have all three - which gives me four different Force Level options. I like having options.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

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