Unarmed Florida Teen Shot
- Thread starter MJS
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You may want to read The World According to Garp - the Ellen James character and her "legacy" of followers, the Ellen Jamesians reminds me of many situations like this - and it never ceases to amaze me the black-or-white litmus you like to apply to things.
Deify him? I think it's an opportunity to examine something that's wrong. Not to say there are plenty people who just follow along for the sake of having something to do with their time, similar to some Occupy people who don't even know what the movement is about, but they're happy to call out and demonstrate, get high and destroy property.
OP
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You know, as one that has said that whats said in the media, should be taken with a grain of salt, some of what I've said, has probably sounded like the complete opposite. You're right....each day, something new seems to be coming out, so hopefully, one of these days, we'll get all the facts.
As for your last paragraph...I agree. By all means, if Martin was in fact attacking Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have every right to defend himself. One thing that I've asked many times, is, was he in the right to use that much force? I mean, sure, it could be said that he was in fear for his life. But, isn't this a fine line? I mean, your version of fearing for you life, could be different from mine. Ex: Someone is physically attacking you, knocks you down, starts really beating the hell out of you. Someone is standing 10ft. away from you, swearing, yelling, claiming that you cut them off while driving. They're not moving towards you, just acting like a crazy nut. While one case is obviously more drastic than the other, both people can claim they were in fear of their life. Should the latter be able to kill someone?
ballen0351
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The latest version of the story ive seen so far was martin was beating zimmermams head against the sidewalk. If thats true i think deadly force is ok. If im attacked knocked down and having my head bashed on the side walk im going to shoot too. Another version ive seen was Martin was trying to take the gun away from zimmerman which to me again would make deadly force justified. But again i say that in the same light as above these are just reports from the news so who knows of they are real or not
Empty Hands
Senior Master
You need to go back to photoshop school, son. A cropped, lower resolution image is the "original"? That isn't even logical. As a matter of fact, the second picture is an image reported in the Miami Herald, and is clearly labeled as a photograph of a sign at a rally. You know, a large, cropped, lower resolution copy that was then photographed, further decreasing the fidelity. Which is obvious from the image. Of course, that didn't stop Dan Riehl from running with it, and all the eager little ducklings like yourself gobbled it up. You're being rooked, willingly or not.
There seems to be a lot of that going around after this tragic incident.
swore i wouldnt get involved or say anything, but I am so damn tired of this being painted as a race and civil rights war.
today I heard on the Philly station about the PROTEST of a "WHITE MAN WHO SHOT A LITTLE BLACK KID".
This pisses me off and I believe the Media is completely responsible for blowing this out of proportion and turning it into a RACE WAR.
Funny thing is, kids, real kids, not 17 year olds, are killed everyday in Philly and NOT 1 PROTEST or **** done by anyone. But the second people think its RACE related its an atrocity.
As tragic as it is, it doesnt compare to a 9 year old playing in her yard and getting hit 4 times from *** holes shooting at each other. Wheres the media for that?
I am so sick of this ****.
and for the record, I dont know who's at fault ZIMMERMAN or MARTIN. And I really dont care. Im not concerned for strangers 400 miles away when everyday kids get shot in MY AREA and no one says or does **** around here.
but everyone made sure to line up in center city to protest for someone miles away....
sad.
today I heard on the Philly station about the PROTEST of a "WHITE MAN WHO SHOT A LITTLE BLACK KID".
This pisses me off and I believe the Media is completely responsible for blowing this out of proportion and turning it into a RACE WAR.
Funny thing is, kids, real kids, not 17 year olds, are killed everyday in Philly and NOT 1 PROTEST or **** done by anyone. But the second people think its RACE related its an atrocity.
As tragic as it is, it doesnt compare to a 9 year old playing in her yard and getting hit 4 times from *** holes shooting at each other. Wheres the media for that?
I am so sick of this ****.
and for the record, I dont know who's at fault ZIMMERMAN or MARTIN. And I really dont care. Im not concerned for strangers 400 miles away when everyday kids get shot in MY AREA and no one says or does **** around here.
but everyone made sure to line up in center city to protest for someone miles away....
sad.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Maybe it's just me, but the two images of Trayvon look about the same age. If the one below is recent, that doesn't much change the point - this was a skinny little dude.
I think we could turn this discussion into something much more productive and important to self-defense theory here.
This is a really compelling case - for the sake of discussion, can we agree to assume the following?
1. Adult self-appointed neighborhood patrol, out on a personal errand, sees an unfamiliar young person wearing a hoodie (in the rain and in the dark) walking in the neighborhood, looking around a lot, lending to probably suspicion.
2. Said adult pursues pedestrian.
3. Hooded pedestrian notices adult following him, verbally confronts him telling and continues to try to leave; as adult continues to follow and close in, pedestrian turns and as adult approaches begins to attack.
4. An altercation happens - at various times each party is superior in position to the other.
5. The adult attempts at one point to return to his vehicle (purpose unknown).
6. The fight escalates to the point where the pedestrian is bashing the adult's head on the ground.
7. The adult shoots the pedestrian, killing him.
I think there are many on the board who live in neighborhoods where home and car break-ins are common and see unfamiliar pedestrians a lot. By the time many of criminals who burglarize are often long gone before police arrive, leaving some to focus more on prevention by confronting strangers in their neighborhoods.
When does this kind of altercation stop being self-defense and become a fight? Who is defending themselves here?
Let's assume each of these people perceived themselves to be in a threatening situation; from the pedestrian's standpoint, some strange dude was pursuing him for some unknown reason, and when this person tried to attack him, he turned the tables on the man, trying to save his life. From the man's standpoint, this person might have been fleeing from already committing a crime or seeking an opportunistic situation and rather than risk loss or injury to another neighbor, he takes it upon himself - bravely - to confront this man. When he gets close enough to talk or pose a postural superiority to the suspect, he is attacked, so he responds trying to save his life.
What if BOTH of these men felt threatened and BOTH were trying to defend their lives? If this is the case, should fault lie with the survivor?
This is a really compelling case - for the sake of discussion, can we agree to assume the following?
1. Adult self-appointed neighborhood patrol, out on a personal errand, sees an unfamiliar young person wearing a hoodie (in the rain and in the dark) walking in the neighborhood, looking around a lot, lending to probably suspicion.
2. Said adult pursues pedestrian.
3. Hooded pedestrian notices adult following him, verbally confronts him telling and continues to try to leave; as adult continues to follow and close in, pedestrian turns and as adult approaches begins to attack.
4. An altercation happens - at various times each party is superior in position to the other.
5. The adult attempts at one point to return to his vehicle (purpose unknown).
6. The fight escalates to the point where the pedestrian is bashing the adult's head on the ground.
7. The adult shoots the pedestrian, killing him.
I think there are many on the board who live in neighborhoods where home and car break-ins are common and see unfamiliar pedestrians a lot. By the time many of criminals who burglarize are often long gone before police arrive, leaving some to focus more on prevention by confronting strangers in their neighborhoods.
When does this kind of altercation stop being self-defense and become a fight? Who is defending themselves here?
Let's assume each of these people perceived themselves to be in a threatening situation; from the pedestrian's standpoint, some strange dude was pursuing him for some unknown reason, and when this person tried to attack him, he turned the tables on the man, trying to save his life. From the man's standpoint, this person might have been fleeing from already committing a crime or seeking an opportunistic situation and rather than risk loss or injury to another neighbor, he takes it upon himself - bravely - to confront this man. When he gets close enough to talk or pose a postural superiority to the suspect, he is attacked, so he responds trying to save his life.
What if BOTH of these men felt threatened and BOTH were trying to defend their lives? If this is the case, should fault lie with the survivor?
ballen0351
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See i do notice a difference. The top picture he looks to be about 12 the bottom id say 16 not a huge difference. The two zimmerman pics i do see a huge difference
Are you sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that the shooter said, "F**king c**ns" while on the phone with 911 dispatch and the dispatcher didn't say anything or warn him or ... anything at all regarding the racial epithet?
Cuz I think that might be part of the "it's a race issue" problem. When racists get involved, it's pretty hard to NOT call it a race crime. *just sayin'*
Empty Hands
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Eh, I just don't really see it. He looks small in both. I do agree on Zimmerman, he of course looks very different in the new pic. Ironically, given the back and forth on this thread, he looks less stereotypically "Hispanic" to me in the new picture. More like the generic white guy he was first described as.
ballen0351
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D1jinx brings up a great point. Im not far from philly im in the metro baltimore washing dc area. We have kids shot and killed all the time nobody cares. We dont have marches or rallys but we did this week in baltimore for martin. Whats the difference? Why no concern for them.
ballen0351
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why would they its not a dispatchers job to correct people id bet never even herd it a dispatcher is trying to do 20 things at once and im sure they were not listening to every word zimmerman whispered to himself.
Besides if sanford is anything like here they have heard way way worse.
ballen0351
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why would they its not a dispatchers job to correct people id bet never even herd it a dispatcher is trying to do 20 things at once and im sure they were not listening to every word zimmerman whispered to himself.
Besides if sanford is anything like here they have heard way way worse.
No, it's not a dispatcher's job to correct people and I do realize they are multi-tasking during the calls ... I wonder, however, if people think that the slur was ignored on purpose? Again, just suggesting here.
EXACTLY. I am born and raised in Baltimore and know all too well about the lovely CHARM city.
we were there this past 4th of July when the "Black" man stabbed the "WHITE" man in the neck with a bottle and killed him at the harbor in front of McCormick and Shmidts. They had an arguement, broke up, and the guy ran up behind him when his back was turned and stabbed him in the neck with a broken bottle.
WHERE WAS THAT RACE RALLEY??????? Why was that not called a RACE CRIME?????? There sure was alot of name calling from both sides that were VERY RACIAL....
Same day up the block a small child was shot in the leg while walking home from the fireworks with his dad, holding his hand.
NO RALLEY.
hey heres an idea, lets tweet the WRONG ADDRESS and run a 70 year old couple out of there home.
or
lets where a hoody to the house of representatives.
or
lets hold a ralley and end up looting a walgreens.
all of this **** is an excuse for people to act like a bunch of *** holes and say its ok cause its an atrocity what happened.
when i grew up and today, the "gear" of an eastcoast thug is hoody, timbs, gold teeth and white T. not a stereo type either. real. hell I where 3 out of 4. cause thats how i grew up. this whole "hoody" **** is nonsense too.
or
lets where a hoody to the house of representatives.
or
lets hold a ralley and end up looting a walgreens.
all of this **** is an excuse for people to act like a bunch of *** holes and say its ok cause its an atrocity what happened.
when i grew up and today, the "gear" of an eastcoast thug is hoody, timbs, gold teeth and white T. not a stereo type either. real. hell I where 3 out of 4. cause thats how i grew up. this whole "hoody" **** is nonsense too.
Gold teeth dont make for the quite so inocent kid. there are his facebook pictures out there where he's "THUGGED OUT". not that it should matter...
I do agree on Zimmerman, he of course looks very different in the new pic. Ironically, given the back and forth on this thread, he looks less stereotypically "Hispanic" to me in the new picture. More like the generic white guy he was first described as.
what block do you think he checked on his census and school applications? or financial aid? or job applications? white?
