Trusting people you train with.

[Shaderon]

Going back to a couple of recent threads, I have been thinking of a trust issue I have, concerning trusting anyone in a physical sense. This is because of various issues I have had with the whole of my past life, I've come to realise over the years, that I have never really fully trusted anyone not to hurt me in a physical sense. I've just dealt with it by blocking it out.

However, a thread recently regarding the sense of family in the training hall started my cogs whirring, also one about horseplay amongst kids being a life learning and bonding thing.

In a relatively short frame of time, ten months to be exact, when training, I've realised that the people in the Dojang who could do me the most damage but have demonstrated by using controlled techniques that they won't, are people that I have come to trust more than anyone else ever. (Yes including my own dad who pinned me down and scared the life out of me by mistake when I was about 6) . In fact I'd go so far as to say I'd trust my instructor and the assistant instructor with my life, one or two others I trust to a lesser degree not to hurt me, but I'm still unconfident about people I've not sparred with and trained with that much.

Does anyone else feel this way or feel that training with others is a kind of "bonding" type thing?

 

[kidswarrior]

Going back to a couple of recent threads, I have been thinking of a trust issue I have, concerning trusting anyone in a physical sense. This is because of various issues I have had with the whole of my past life, I've come to realise over the years, that I have never really fully trusted anyone not to hurt me in a physical sense. I've just dealt with it by blocking it out.

However, a thread recently regarding the sense of family in the training hall started my cogs whirring, also one about horseplay amongst kids being a life learning and bonding thing.

In a relatively short frame of time, ten months to be exact, when training, I've realised that the people in the Dojang who could do me the most damage but have demonstrated by using controlled techniques that they won't, are people that I have come to trust more than anyone else ever. (Yes including my own dad who pinned me down and scared the life out of me by mistake when I was about 6) . In fact I'd go so far as to say I'd trust my instructor and the assistant instructor with my life, one or two others I trust to a lesser degree not to hurt me, but I'm still unconfident about people I've not sparred with and trained with that much.

Does anyone else feel this way or feel that training with others is a kind of "bonding" type thing?

Fantastic question, Shaderon. The trust issue is one reason I don't spar much anymore. The whole, We train to kill, but spar for points (with all the previous training momentarily suspended) has always rankled me. So when sparring during tests, etc., I would usually hold way back rather than take a tongue lashing for going too hard (the old boxer, I guess). Then I would get berated for being a poor fighter. In reality, always felt that I could hurt the other guy anytime I wanted. But weren't we training 'brothers'? Have never wanted to hurt a brother in the arts.

So, the trust issue/unspoken agreement on how much force is right for every person and situation, is an excellent point for discussion, and I believe, an unresolved--mostly unspoken--monster problem. Much like the elephant in the room.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

It depends on which club im in.
I have no worries what so ever in the MMA club. All the guys who've been there a while, we know how to work with each other, and with the new guys they simply aren't going to get me in a position where they can hurt me where I can't stop them.

The Aiki-wa Jitsu is another matter however. Since in alot of cases we end up basically "giving" the move for the other guy to perform when its a newbie, they occasionally do something stupid. Most recent one is a newer addition to the club, an ex TKD blackbelt, and Im not sure if it was simply because he didn't understand the difference in training methods, but he came pretty close to messing up my wrist.
We were doing a wrist lock and immobilization(that part doesn't work on me because of uber flexible shoulders)
and I tapped a grand total of six times very very loudly, and he still didn't let go. Since I wasn't immobilized I was angry enough to push off the ground and was about to punch him in the crotch when my sensei intervened.
Very very irritating.

 

[exile]

Shaderon's question is very important, because the more effective your training for combat applicability, the more dangerous it is—you can't have it both ways, after all! My own feeling is, there are two things that you have to be certain of in order to have a lot of trust in someone: first, their intentions, and second, their ability.

Intentions are all-important, because hard `jutsu'-style training, as vs. typical sparring or prearranged one-steps or that kind of thing, are in effect exercises in acting: a good actor will temporarily take on a role as their own personality—this is how they bring authenticity to the performance of a character—and in the case of training an MA for combat, the character they're taking on is that of an assailant with no compunctions about any level of violence. You have to have a sense that such a training partner at some fundamental level has this assumed persona under control, that you aren't going to be facing an actual violent assault (as vs. a controlled simulation of one) every time you work with that person. You need to have an assurance that that person is not going to allow their `R-brain' to take over completely in the course of the training session. Similarly, if you're the one playing the assailant, the other person has to remember that a reality-based defense isn't quite the same as a real defense; it has to be detuned just enough to keep you out of hospital.

Competence is crucial because, with the best will in the world, a combatant who doesn't know how to take things up to the edge without going over it is capable of doing you some real damage, even if they're really trying to keep on the `simulation' side of the combat. A strike towards the eyes needs to stay out of the eyes themselves; even if the defender understands this, they need to be good enough to deliver the pseudostrike within the margin of safety.

The key to both angles is I think experience, which is why what Shaderon said about trusting her instructors most, in spite of their greater inherent capacity to hurt her, is I think exactly the right conclusion to come to. It makes most sense to trust those who have had years of practice both in refining their technical competence and in maintaining the balance between instinctive combat reactions on the one hand and training safety on the other.

 

[zDom]

We pretty much HAVE to trust other students in hapkido as our lives literally are in their hands at times.

I often advise new students when applying joint locks to slow down as the wrist begins to lock to give the partner time to tap out. They don't always realize how close to spraining or dislocation they are getting.

I tell them, "Go slower, and I will wait longer before I tap out ... "

 

[kidswarrior]

I often advise new students when applying joint locks to slow down as the wrist begins to lock to give the partner time to tap out. They don't always realize how close to spraining or dislocation they are getting.

I tell them, "Go slower, and I will wait longer before I tap out ... "

Yes, I agree that going slowly is key, especially for newbies. I tell them something similar, zDom: This stuff is powerful; it's not like TV (because that's usually their only frame of reference). Later, when two partners are experienced, a little tougher, and also know each other better, things can speed up and still be both safe and productive.

 

[stickarts]

I usually watch people pretty carefully before i work with them to get a sense of their attitude and skill level. As a teacher, I start slowly with students and build rapport with them and gradually increase the training level as their comfort level grows with me.
Your training can really escalate when you find someone of high skill level and develop a mutual trust. I remember sparring my instructor almost full out but without causing damage. Misjudging strikes by even 1/2 " would have meant a hurting by either one of us but we had trained together for so long that we were able to work together at that level.
It can be difficult to find that level of trust and rapport with someone but if you can, really appreciate it and learn from it!

 

[Kacey]

First, this is a great question!

I trust my sahbum and the seniors I know not to hurt me implicitly - a trust based on experience. In terms of ability to hurt me, I trust white belts not at all, as they generally have way more power than they realize, and very little control, while realizing that, as a senior and an instructor, my job is to show them how to strike correctly without beating the crap of their training partners. I trust the vast majority of the people I train with not to hurt me on purpose; how much I trust them not to hurt me accidentally varies with their level of training and experience, and my experiences with them.

I have, in the past, trained with a few people who were out to prove they were able to hurt people - usually people junior to themselves in rank and experience. The first time that happened to me and a group of juniors (we were all white and yellow belts, and the person using us for target practice was a blue belt), we went to the senior student in the class - a I Dan - and asked him what to do. He went to the blue belt in question, offered to spar her after class, and told her he would hit her exactly as hard as she hit him... after several minutes of getting hit (as she was all offense, and no defense - why block when you can run over your opponent? - and that was all she did) she ended the match... and we never had trouble with her again. I have used this solution in various incarnations a few times since then.

 

[IcemanSK]

First, this is a great question!

I trust my sahbum and the seniors I know not to hurt me implicitly - a trust based on experience. In terms of ability to hurt me, I trust white belts not at all, as they generally have way more power than they realize, and very little control, while realizing that, as a senior and an instructor, my job is to show them how to strike correctly without beating the crap of their training partners. I trust the vast majority of the people I train with not to hurt me on purpose; how much I trust them not to hurt me accidentally varies with their level of training and experience, and my experiences with them.

I have, in the past, trained with a few people who were out to prove they were able to hurt people - usually people junior to themselves in rank and experience. The first time that happened to me and a group of juniors (we were all white and yellow belts, and the person using us for target practice was a blue belt), we went to the senior student in the class - a I Dan - and asked him what to do. He went to the blue belt in question, offered to spar her after class, and told her he would hit her exactly as hard as she hit him... after several minutes of getting hit (as she was all offense, and no defense - why block when you can run over your opponent? - and that was all she did) she ended the match... and we never had trouble with her again. I have used this solution in various incarnations a few times since then.

Great question, Shaderon!

Like Kacey, I've experienced higher rank students trying to "prove something" to juniors. Usually this happens when the senior student is feeling insecure about their place in a class & wants to "feel powerful" or "in control." Obviously the opposite is being demonstrated in their tactic. I once had a fellow student (a Korean kid) who would show up junior students often & quite painfully. Our Korean master's response was to spar with the wayward student while yelling at him in Korean. It was enjoyable to watch:whip1: .

I tend to trust most black belts to not hurt someone intentionally. But if there is someone who is a bit sadistic, they will not get the oportunity to train with me or my students. I think trust is essential for training partners: right down to making sure our toe nails are trimmed. An instructor once said to a class I was in, "If you love your friends, cut your toe nails."

 

[Shaderon]

"If you love your friends, cut your toe nails."

Oops a timely reminder! Thanks! *Reaches for the clippers*

 

[Bigshadow]

Does anyone else feel this way or feel that training with others is a kind of "bonding" type thing?

Yes, very much so. The feeling I have with those I train with are that of brothers and sisters (there are a couple of females that train with us). I have tried to articulate that feeling of comaraderie.

I think that develops naturally when you trust others not to injure you and they repeatedly show responsibility and care not to damage you.

 

[Laurentkd]

Going back to a couple of recent threads, I have been thinking of a trust issue I have, concerning trusting anyone in a physical sense. This is because of various issues I have had with the whole of my past life, I've come to realise over the years, that I have never really fully trusted anyone not to hurt me in a physical sense. I've just dealt with it by blocking it out.

However, a thread recently regarding the sense of family in the training hall started my cogs whirring, also one about horseplay amongst kids being a life learning and bonding thing.

In a relatively short frame of time, ten months to be exact, when training, I've realised that the people in the Dojang who could do me the most damage but have demonstrated by using controlled techniques that they won't, are people that I have come to trust more than anyone else ever. (Yes including my own dad who pinned me down and scared the life out of me by mistake when I was about 6) . In fact I'd go so far as to say I'd trust my instructor and the assistant instructor with my life, one or two others I trust to a lesser degree not to hurt me, but I'm still unconfident about people I've not sparred with and trained with that much.

Does anyone else feel this way or feel that training with others is a kind of "bonding" type thing?

I agree with you completely! I definitely trust my instructor to never hurt me. I'll let him put me into any sort of joint lock and do any throw, etc and completely relax because 1) I trust his training and know that he knows where my max will be (especially because we train a lot together) and I know he is never intentionally going to hurt me (of course accidents can happen with anyone) and 2) I know that if I trust him I am much less likely to get hurt than if I tense up and resist- that is where most people get injured.
Students who are lower ranked than me, I trust will never INTENTIONALLY hurt me. Of course, their control is not nearly as good as my instructors, but the idea that they are never TRYING to hurt me makes me comfortable enough to spar them without worry.
Now, there are a couple of students who I just hate to spar (and one guy I will not spar) because I know they have very little control, and are more concerned with getting a good shot in than they are with not hurting me (their opponent).
And lastly, if I am sparring a new student for the first time, I make sure to move slowly and really pay attention to their distance and techniques because 1). as the senior I feel responsible for their training at that time and 2). I don't know what they are going to do so I have to be more wary, until I trust them.

The coolest part is that we have a really great group of adult students who all come to the same class. There are about 10 of us that are always at the dojang, and when we are training together you really feel that tight-nit group feel. Everyone wants everyone else to succeed and we enjoy supporting each other and helping each other grow.

I think THIS is what makes martial arts so great. It is an individual activity- I can push myself as hard as I want, working to my potential without worrying about anyone else. But at the same time it is a team activity- because I have others around me working towards the same goals as I am, and we all support each other.
That is just one reason why training martial arts is the greatest activity in the world, in my oh so humble opinion

 

[KempoGuy06]

Going back to a couple of recent threads, I have been thinking of a trust issue I have, concerning trusting anyone in a physical sense. This is because of various issues I have had with the whole of my past life, I've come to realise over the years, that I have never really fully trusted anyone not to hurt me in a physical sense. I've just dealt with it by blocking it out.

However, a thread recently regarding the sense of family in the training hall started my cogs whirring, also one about horseplay amongst kids being a life learning and bonding thing.

In a relatively short frame of time, ten months to be exact, when training, I've realised that the people in the Dojang who could do me the most damage but have demonstrated by using controlled techniques that they won't, are people that I have come to trust more than anyone else ever. (Yes including my own dad who pinned me down and scared the life out of me by mistake when I was about 6) . In fact I'd go so far as to say I'd trust my instructor and the assistant instructor with my life, one or two others I trust to a lesser degree not to hurt me, but I'm still unconfident about people I've not sparred with and trained with that much.

Does anyone else feel this way or feel that training with others is a kind of "bonding" type thing?

Congrats on a great topic.

I was in this same boat when I first started in SKK. I was nervous that I was gonne get hurt by the less experienced people. I eventually over came this fear when my instructor told me that he was just as nervous about me hurting him because of my size, Im 6'4 260lbs and at a white belt I didnt have any control so he was affraid that I would not be able to control my punches. I eventually started to trust people and as I have moved up in rank my fear of being hust has vanished, partly because Im big and can take my fair share of abuse (i have the bruises to prove it) and because the people in my dojo have come to earn my trust and I trust these people to use control so I dont get seriously hurt and they trust me to do the same thing

B

 

[Drac]

I must broadcast this "I am not on the prowl attitude"..I have had the chance to train with some very talented females and they trust me..I am flattered..I want to be a great teacher and I believe that your students trusting you is an important part of it...Kind of off topic..Sorry

 

[Lisa]

I have always trusted my instructor, not only with my well being but that of my children as well. He has shown great patience and understanding and has gained my trust.

 

[Grenadier]

There are several levels of trust that are present amongst my fellow instructors and students. Trust is something that's built up over the days, months, and yes, even years.

For this thread, I'll limit my opinion to kumite / sparring amongst students, or the student / instructor sparring.

The most basic level of trust is what an inexperienced student must have when starting out the training. He has to trust the instructors, believing in their experience, and their abilities to teach the right thing. In this case, it's akin to having a certain level of blind faith in someone. This student can trust the instructors, knowing that when the instructor throws a punch his way, he's not going to get KO'ed if he misses the block.

This level of trust increases along the way, and starts applying to more senior students in the dojo as well. Once the student gains more experience, he knows that even if he has to spar against more experienced folks, that they're not out to tear his head off, etc. Maybe he'll get hit with a decent tap when starting out, which progresses to a decent punch later on, but at no time, is his more experienced sparring partner out to harm him.

Later on, once the student has had "enough" experience, this is where the instructors begin trusting him with more responsibilities, in that now he can serve as a senior sparring partner, understanding that he is NOT there to bash the other person senseless, but rather, to work as a cooperative partner.

At this stage, there will be fewer restrictions on what his opponents who are more experienced than he is, can do to him, assuming that his technique, strategy, etc., has evolved to a point where he can handle it. Despite the increase in responsibility, though, it's still isn't (and never will be) a situation where someone is out to maliciously harm him.

 

[Shaderon]

I must broadcast this "I am not on the prowl attitude"..I have had the chance to train with some very talented females and they trust me..I am flattered..I want to be a great teacher and I believe that your students trusting you is an important part of it...Kind of off topic..Sorry

It's not off topic Drac, I believe it's an important view from the other angle.

 

[tshadowchaser]

there are two things that you have to be certain of in order to have a lot of trust in someone: first, their intentions, and second, their ability.

these are key to trust wwhen sparring or doing any techniques that may get you hurt

I have in the past delt with those I trusted and those i didn't. Those Idid not trust usualy tried to "provesomething" by being over powerful or not doing what they where supposed to be doing or doing something extra at the end of a technique to show off. I hate that kind of student and do not work with them if it can be helped. I have also shown a few of the where the door was and suggested they not come back until they changed their attitude.

 

[Shotochem]

Trust is the most important thing you have while training. It comes with a great responsibility. If you come right down to it you are really responsible for you partners safety and well being and they yours.

The unwritten rule is that the more skilled person is to work at a level slightly above the lower skilled person. Push a little to help them get better guide them when they need help.

Once there is full trust and a feeling of comfort between partners your training steps up to another level. You not only need to be able to trust you partner but yourself and abilities as well.

-Marc-

 

[jdinca]

Great topic! I trust my fellow instructors implicitly. Yeah, there may the occasional errant strike but I know that that is the exception, rather than the rule. If I can stand perfectly still with my hands at my side, while a fellow instructor tries to get a front kick, or a roundhouse kick as close to my head without actually touching me, I think I've developed some trust!