Definately some real world violence here and a firearm discharged several times. One officer traffic stops always have a potential to go south.
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Traffic Stop Gone Bad Video!
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
Damn. That's brutal!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #4
This is a really good, instructive video. There are things I'm not addressing in an open forum; it's not so much that they're "cop secrets" as there's no need openly discussing them. I am going to make a couple of points, though. A beginning caveat: The officer did the best he could in the situation, and deserves every bit of credit for obeying rule 1: he went home at the end of the day! I'm not second guessing him or arm-chair quarterbacking; this is meant to be a lessons learned, not "he should have!"
First -- if you carry a gun, remember that ANYWHERE you go, there is a gun. YOU brought it; this applies to cops or civilian CCH. It means that weapon retention is a vitally important skill to work on; notice that the offender here actually got the officer's gun -- which was, luckily jammed.
Second -- notice that the first tool the officer used after violence started was pepper spray... and it didn't work so good. "You're gonna need more than that" the offender said. Pepper spray is great -- but, like anything else, it's not 100% effective. A determined offender can most definitely fight through it. Hell... most of us had to fight through being sprayed in the academy!
Third, I'm not impressed with the officer's defensive tactics. He moved straight back, and ended up in a shoving match sort of situation. I don't know his training -- but to any of us here on MT, this probably screams for the need for additional, effective training. And it should be a strong reminder to each of us to assess our training and practice; are WE prepared for a larger, tougher, trained opponent than the usual guys we run into? Do we handle each situation as if it might become violent -- or are we complacent? Yes -- I know I am sometimes complacent! And I'll admit it. I've shared before an account that shook me up: One of my partners and I responded to a domestic (verbal only) which turned out to involve a suspect that she'd arrested for DUI just a few weeks before. I'd backed her on that call, and he'd gone along as meek as a kitten. Well... this time was different. We both missed some signs, and when the suspect was ignoring us, she went to tap him on the shoulder. He backfisted her, knocking her back. I immediately moved in and introduced him to the sofa at some velocity, face first and got him restrained. (It would have been the floor, but the sofa got in the way.) Why'd it go bad? We were complacent; we knew the guy, he'd been cooperative in the street... so we missed some signs.
Finally, and maybe most important, you see in both the offender and the cop great examples of the survivor mindset! The cop never quit, never gave up trying, and remained amazingly calm and controlled. The suspect kept going, even after being shot. Remember -- you're never killed by one shot! Never give up, never stop, never surrender!
First -- if you carry a gun, remember that ANYWHERE you go, there is a gun. YOU brought it; this applies to cops or civilian CCH. It means that weapon retention is a vitally important skill to work on; notice that the offender here actually got the officer's gun -- which was, luckily jammed.
Second -- notice that the first tool the officer used after violence started was pepper spray... and it didn't work so good. "You're gonna need more than that" the offender said. Pepper spray is great -- but, like anything else, it's not 100% effective. A determined offender can most definitely fight through it. Hell... most of us had to fight through being sprayed in the academy!
Third, I'm not impressed with the officer's defensive tactics. He moved straight back, and ended up in a shoving match sort of situation. I don't know his training -- but to any of us here on MT, this probably screams for the need for additional, effective training. And it should be a strong reminder to each of us to assess our training and practice; are WE prepared for a larger, tougher, trained opponent than the usual guys we run into? Do we handle each situation as if it might become violent -- or are we complacent? Yes -- I know I am sometimes complacent! And I'll admit it. I've shared before an account that shook me up: One of my partners and I responded to a domestic (verbal only) which turned out to involve a suspect that she'd arrested for DUI just a few weeks before. I'd backed her on that call, and he'd gone along as meek as a kitten. Well... this time was different. We both missed some signs, and when the suspect was ignoring us, she went to tap him on the shoulder. He backfisted her, knocking her back. I immediately moved in and introduced him to the sofa at some velocity, face first and got him restrained. (It would have been the floor, but the sofa got in the way.) Why'd it go bad? We were complacent; we knew the guy, he'd been cooperative in the street... so we missed some signs.
Finally, and maybe most important, you see in both the offender and the cop great examples of the survivor mindset! The cop never quit, never gave up trying, and remained amazingly calm and controlled. The suspect kept going, even after being shot. Remember -- you're never killed by one shot! Never give up, never stop, never surrender!
Absolutely Drac so stay sharp and stay safe!
Thanks Brian...And some folks wonder why you might see 2 or 3 cruisers on a traffic stop...
Yes, while watching the video I too was wondering about the same things. I'm not a cop but can appreciate the dangers they face day in and day out. Made me wonder at this particular officer's H2H combat training. The suspect was indeed larger and likely sized up the situation while being put on the hood and getting searched. Probably had the thought in his mind somewhere along the lines of "screw this! I can take this guy!" and he tries. Thankfully he failed.
1 shot does kill (particularly in the head) but it takes longer if in the gut (untreated of course). Unfortunately one doesn't have the time to wait for that in a situation like this one.
No the cop never did quit, but it didn't impress upon me that he had full command of the situation, even with an irate suspect (as observed) he was in "the survivor mindset" and that's not good because better options go out the window with that. He also ran away from rather towards his vehicle which could've given him protection and access to his radio (if not wearing one). I'll give him credit that he was probably just scared (on the inside) and went towards (or back) to the path of least resistance.
Scary stuff to be sure.
Hopefully this officer will seek to further his H2H training. Hopefully more officers will be/are doing the same.
Balrog
Master of Arts
And there is an issue right there - he was hit by only one shot. One has to ask why the officer did not put 3-4 rounds into the guys belly. Yes, the weapon jammed, but one also has to ask if it jammed because of damage incurred after the second shot was fired and before the third was attempted.
But as was said earlier, armchair quarterbacking.....
We've had several officers come through our aikido school. The H2H training provided by the local departments is incredibly inadequate for the job at hand. It amazed me to find that they have to re-qual with their side arm but get no continuing education in hand to hand. In a world where every round down range from an officers weapon gets media attention and lawyers swarming like buzzards it amazes me that so many departments don't go heavy on the controlling of suspects with locks, pins and joint destruction. I'm glad the officer in the video made it home in one piece.
And Drac, as Brian said stay sharp, stay safe. And I'll add...thanks.
And Drac, as Brian said stay sharp, stay safe. And I'll add...thanks.
Exactly what I was thinking because knowing the functions of Aikido and Hapkido being more in line with subduing your attacker/suspect these arts would be better suited for those in security and law enforcement. For bouncers and such other arts are probably better since they don't need to worry (as much) about coming under scrutiny for hitting a suspect as an officer would. But putting a joint lock on someone until they're better subdued with handcuffs and such sounds like a good idea. No matter how big a guy is, they're not going to argue with their ligaments and joints screaming "stop resisting!"
The officer in the video had ample opportunities to perform a take-down maneuver with the suspect reaching out and grabbing him ... ah! (slaps own face) I'm arm-chair quarterbacking! I'll shut up.
I'm going to start a separate thread on what cops are taught in DT, so I'll be brief here.
The simple reality is that out of a 6 month academy, DT is only a small part of the instruction, and has to include topics that don't really fit anywhere else but aren't H2H combat (like how to search a building, proper handcuffing techniques, or search procedures). So, even the best academies only really provide a very quick and dirty course in H2H combat.
The simple reality is that out of a 6 month academy, DT is only a small part of the instruction, and has to include topics that don't really fit anywhere else but aren't H2H combat (like how to search a building, proper handcuffing techniques, or search procedures). So, even the best academies only really provide a very quick and dirty course in H2H combat.
How much would have intensive grappling training helped the officer? Something like a modified bjj program for LEOs?
I think BJJ would surely have helped there, but he survived and that's a success!
That was pretty brutal! It is unfortunate that the officer could have cleared his pistol and double tapped the attacker. 
Yeah... I can't help but think about the first malfunction drill... TAP - RACK - BANG! (if necessary).
H'mmm... A buddy of mine had to clear a jam while holding a ballistic shield; he tapped on the shield, used it to rack the slide, and got his shot off. So... let's apply the principle! TAP on the goon's forehead. RACK against his ears? Maybe no need for a bang at that point!
H'mmm... A buddy of mine had to clear a jam while holding a ballistic shield; he tapped on the shield, used it to rack the slide, and got his shot off. So... let's apply the principle! TAP on the goon's forehead. RACK against his ears? Maybe no need for a bang at that point!
Well that's the thing, watch the video again and you see that the suspect had tapped against the officer's head then the officer had racked against the suspect's head (or was it vice-versa) either way... by the time he (the officer) could've gone Bang was when Back-up arrived. Otherwise he was too busy keeping his *** from being kicked by a former heavy-weight boxer.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Wow. Scary! After seeing cops get killed during routine traffic stops, I completely reconsidered my interest in law enforcement.
Cops have the potential to be killed in everything they do. Their job is to go towards danger; to go to the sound of the guns. Cops make "routine" contact with people under the worst possible situations, and, in the US, there's always a gun there when a cop is there. I've gone on calls that seemed to have no potential for violence, only to end up wrestling with someone... I've seen someone who had never been even uncooperative suddenly attack one of my partners... and seen someone known for fighting and resisting go meek as a kitten. You never know what's going to happen, yet, out of hundreds of traffic stops, Terry stops, and other contacts with people -- I've only had a handful of fights. That's why complacency becomes such an easy trap.
blackxpress
Green Belt
I too was impressed with the officer's seeming lack of any useful DT skills. Unfortunately, most depts. don't require any ongoing H2H training. I am not a LEO but have trained under two different Senseis (including my current one) who have both designed and taught LE self defense. I know our tactics work and, had this officer trained where I train he would have been much better prepared to handle this situation without having to pull his sidearm.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
If only he had some Verbal Judo, huh Drac? :wink2:
