Traditional Chinese Training In Denver Area?

Discussion in 'Chinese Martial Arts - General' started by ebozzz, Apr 29, 2009.

  1. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    Ouch! :)

    I'm so confused now. I only own one book on Xing Yi Chaun (Form and Will Boxing by Lin Jianhua) who lists his teacher as Wen Jingming. I need to get more.

    From what I am interpreting, you & others are saying is that there is a discrepancy with the lineage that was provided on the site of the Sin Lung Kwoon and also of the American Tang Shou Tao Association that I need to take into consideration. There is also some concern about the pictures displaying the Santi Shi postures which were available on his site. Is that correct?

    The headache continues.... :)
     
  2. JadecloudAlchemist

    JadecloudAlchemist Master of Arts

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    After looking at the picture more closely it might not be Santi but a transmission into Metal as is listed. My teacher would tell me be careful of photographs they sometimes can be misleading.

    Vince Black is a senior student of Li Zi Ming and Li Zi Ming appointed him the president of the U.S. branch of Li Zi Ming organization.

    On what Xue was saying about Xingyiquan and Xinyiquan they are obviously different in name Xing(form) Yi(intent) Quan(fist) VS Xin(Emotion) Yi(intent) Quan(fist)

    More info on that:
    http://www.kungfu-taichi.com/servlet/kungfoo/Action/Resource/ResourceKey/1791

    On the Ninpiden school. I do not know who is teacher or organization is so I don't know how legit he is.

    The other Jujutsu schools are Brazilian and Gendai(modern creation)
     
  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Yes but I wouldn't worry about it. I can get his lineage to Li Laoneng. You can read different books on Xingyiquan by reputable people and get different lineages. Occasionally, if you know who a certain masters students were you find a fake lineage but all that lineage is really good for is history and finding fakes and finding fakes is difficult.

    And now that I am home I can check a few more things and Li Feiyu is Li Loaning. And Dai Longbang trained Xinyi with Cao Jiwu and trained with Ma Xeuli who was more his MA brother than a sifu. And that Jike is still considered the founder of Xingyiquan but many people of his day called what he did Jike Boxing and he did allegedly teach Xinyiquan to Cao Jiu. But understand at Ji Jike you are now back between 1602 - 1680. And lineages in CMA can get hard to verify the older they get. Basically Li Loaning (1809 - 1890) is the only person with any certainty you can get to and be pretty sure who his students actually were.

    If I lived in the area I would most certainly go check his school. From the pictures it is hard to judge and his postures of the 5 elements do not look like what I was taught by 2 different sifus but then what I was taught by 2 different sifus does not look the same and they are both Herbei style Xingyiquan. However they do have similarities. The first one looks more like what I am told comes from Li Cunyi and you can see that by looking for videos of Di Guoyong and Wang Deming. And Wang Deming is the real deal; he was a body guard for a time. And Di Guoyong is also considered the real deal as well. My other sifu came from BP Chan and this version of Herbei is a bit different but I most certainly would not question BP Chan he to was rather talented and quite good. So differences are sometimes not a bad thing. However there was a link you provided (not the one to sifu bingo) that showed a gentleman in either Santi or Piquan and his stance, alignment and posture were horribly wrong and I might go see his school but I would watch him REAL close and ask him a whole lot of questions.

    In traditional Xingyiquan there are always 3 levels of student and teacher. Basically beginner, intermediate and advanced and if you are a student you will always start from the beginning but the sifu can make the difference. If you can find an advanced sifu you have hit gold but what I have found is always intermediate and beginner and you can only go so far with them and stay in Xingyiquan but you can learn from them but you need to study (read) on your own IMO in these cases to keep a check on where you are and where you want to be.

    Books
    There are some good ones here

    http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#xingyi

    http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#transxingyi

    Also I like

    The Xingyi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting

    Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan

    Li Tianji's The Skills of Xingyiquan

    Xing Yi Nei Gong Compiled/Edited by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell

    And I may be labeled a blasphemer but....

    Sun Lutang also wrote a book on Xingyi "Xingyiquan Xue The study of form mind boxing" but I must admit it is my least favorite
     
  4. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    Now I feel better! :)

    He was also a student of Xu Hong Ji (Hsu Hong Chi) per his bio on the NATSTA site.

    http://www.natsta.org/AboutUs/drVinceBlack.asp

    Mike Bingo's bio claims that he was also instructed by Xu Hong Ji.

    Boy! You guys are loading me up with information! I actually missed the Xing & Xin previuously. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    I have visited that school in the past and I am almost positive that their lineage goes back to Masaaki Hatsumi. It's been a while, several years, but if I recall correctly, they had the information displayed on a wall in the school. There does seem to be a new association involved (Ninpiden International Ninjutsu Martial Arts Association) that I don't remember from my last visit. The website is also different.


    The Fusen Academy is less than 5 minutes from my residence and the Mizukan Dojo is less than 15 minutes away. I've never paid either of them visit.

    Here's an update on my search. I spoke with Ho's School of Chinese Martial Arts earlier. Gretchen Ho took my call and it does seem to be a potential option. It may even be perfect for myself and my kids. The kids program sounds wonderful. The commute would be approximately 45 minutes one way. Sad thing that I can't find many options that are closer. I've got less of a headache now but the search continues. Thanks again....
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  5. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    Xue,

    I feel much better now about Sifu Bingo. You, Jaded Cloud and clfsean have been a tremendous help!
     
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Go check out his school but watch some vids of the people I mentioned first. Then talk with the sifu and see how you feel.

    But I should make something clear I do believe that clfsean and I are on the same page here as to top choices.

    I am a recovering Xingyiquan junkie :D I would give just about any Xingyiquan school the benefit of the doubt and go check them out. And my last sifu was better than my first but he to lacked some understanding of Xingyiquan in a fight. He always reverted to his past training of TKD and Kenpo and they are very different from Xingyiquan, but he was a damn good fighter. Some may not care about that but I am a stickler for the traditional style so it mattered to me. I see some discrepencies between what I was taught and Sifu Bingo but without actually seeing him do the style in person its is hard to judge.

    But as far as top choices I do believe clfsean got it and let me tell you what little I have seen of Gao style bagua and the bagua I have done in the past, bagua is pretty damn cool too.
     
  7. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    I plan to do just that. If my schedule permits, it will take place before the middle of next week.

    Understood and I truly respect all of the insight that all of you have shared with me.

    :) I agree. It's very important for me to learn how to be an effective fighter in whatever style I am studying. If I am fortunate enough to find a Xing Yi teacher, I want to learn to fight as a Xing Yi stylist.

    Maybe I can get a short video of the session that I attend when I make my visit. I don't want to upset anyone by doing it without permission so I will ask if it's acceptable. If I can, it will not be high quality as I will be shooting it from my phone. It only has a 2 megapixel camera. It should be good enough to see the quality of training.

    I do like that Gao Bagua school also but it would take over an hour drive one way to get there from where I live. That could cause some serious challenges. That's one of the reason's that I am hoping that Sifu Bingo's school is the real deal. It will still take me 30+ minutes to reach his location but that shorter commute will make a lot of difference during the winter months when the snow starts.
     
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    My last Xingyiquan Sifu was very knowledgeable about the root of Xingyiquan and the forms and applications he just could not take it to the sparing level. But this was more likely due to his extensive TKD and Kempo background and he was a fighter back in the day. This is not to say I did not learn some things from his about fighting that were applicable to Xingyiquan or any other CMA for that matter because I most certainly did. And I will admit the sparing was a WHOLE lot-o-fun :EG:

    Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    EDIT:

    This is just me, do what you feel is best, but I do not think I would ask to video tape it. I can tell you that my second Xingyiquan sifu would not allow it and my first Xinigyiquan these days would likely charge you for it.
     
  9. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    Ok, here's another update. I was able to visit the Shaolin Hung Mei school and I think that it's the real deal. The Sifu there, Howie Solow, was trained by Tonny Kho who I believe still teaches in the Long Island, NY area.

    I did a few searches for Mr. Kho and found some interesting information. First, there is a description of the school's training that is much better than I can do with my limited experience of CMAs. It's August of 2000 so I imagine that some things have changed. Here it is...

    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1843

    Second, Shaolin Hung Mei is affiliated with a Chinese Cultural Center.

    The Academy of Chinese Martial and Cultural Arts

    Third, Mr. Kho and the school appear to be affiliated with this New York organization....

    Long Island Center For Yoga

    I also found two entities that offer martial arts training at the Hung Mei location in Boulder, Colorado.

    Gu Feng Tai Chi Club

    Kenneth Cohen (He teaches at the cultural center listed above which seems to be synonymous with Shaolin Hung Mei. He also maintains his own site at http://kennethcohen.com/ )

    I really liked this place. I was surprised by number of Asian students that were participating in the classes. Simply having Asian students does not make it authentic in my mind but when that info was combined with the training that I saw, I was convinced. It's a great school in my opinion. I am really jealous of Boulder residents! They have some great training options. I need to relocate..... :)
     
  10. JadecloudAlchemist

    JadecloudAlchemist Master of Arts

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    Ken Cohen is a very good Qigong teacher his work comes highly recommended. The school looks good.
     
  11. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    I spoke with Mr. Cohen via telephone over the weekend. I left him a voice mail message asking him if he knew of some good options for internal arts training. He called me back and told me that he didn't know anyone in the Denver area and added that I was welcome to train with him through seminars/private lessons.

    I may take him up on that at some point in the future. Although, right now I need to train as frequently as possible. He is located in Nederland, Colorado. Getting to Boulder, where he occasionally has lessons, would be difficult to do on a regular basis. Nederland would almost be impossible unless I hit the lotto and didn't have to work. :)

    He seemed like a nice gentleman from our conversation. I don't know if I buy that he doesn't know of anyone in the Denver area who teaches some form of Neijia. As well known as he is I would think that I am not the first person to contact him from Denver. He wasn't nasty about it but he politely told me that he could not help me with my search.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
  12. JadecloudAlchemist

    JadecloudAlchemist Master of Arts

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    I would be surprised that Ken does not know any Neijia players but I have no idea if he has moved on from association with them or what the story is. His Qigong is well done so if you are looking into that I would highly recommend him or someone he recommends. Ken I don't think is known for any Neijia arts and I am not sure if he practices any martial arts.
     
  13. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    It could very well be that he does not associate with many people in this area but I would think that he knows of someone. Maybe he is not satisfied with the quality of instruction in the Denver area? Maybe it's a money thing? I mean, it looks as if that is how he earns his income. Those are just my opinions now.

    During our phone conversation, he said that he would be willing to take me own as a student for Qigong. I may pursue that at a later time after I have gotten some decent training under my belt. His private instruction/seminars would probably make more sense to me then. Right now I need to be able to see someone on at least a weekly basis or several days a week. His location would not make it possible for me to do that.

    Most of the things I have heard about him are related to Qigong. His website (scroll down...) does list Nei Jia Quan as one of the things that he is offering instruction in. This class schedule also states that he coaches individuals in Tai Chi, Bagua, Xing Yi, Chinese Sword Play, Wooden Staff, etc......

    Regardless, when I left my voice message I inquired about internal martial arts. When he called me back I was offered the opportunity to get training through private lessons him and by participating in his seminars on internal martial arts. I think that it is still a big part of what he does but the Qigong is obviously his bread and butter. My current schedule and location will not permit me to train with him right now but since he was at least polite & courteous enough to call me back, I will keep him in mind there are some changes in the future. That is if he is willing to take me on...... :)
     
  14. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    My search continues but it's looking more like Gao style Ba Gua Zhang is in my future. I found a person who teaches in a park that is convenient to me and my schedule. Thus far it seems to be the best fit of quality and availability. Although, the decision is not final as of yet.

    The Sin Lung Kwoon is still very high on my list but the class schedule may be a problem for me right now. :( I really want to train in Xing Yi......

    I have also found this since my last post......

    Denver Shaolin Tai Ji Institute

    I have spoken with the instructor and also received favorable comments about him from a couple of his previous teachers. He only does private lessons at this time but the cost is very reasonable. The search goes on....
     
  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I really like Xingyiquan too but after a Xingyi 12 step program I can now say I'm a recovering Xingyi addict...... SANTI SHI!!!! :uhohh: oh no :anic: :D

    The Denver Shaolin Kung Fu Tai Ji Institute is worth checking out but I find this interesting

    The Yang Family teaches

    Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 103 Movement Hand Form
    Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 49 Demonstration Form
    Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 13 Movement Hand Form
    Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 16 Movement Hand Form
    Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 67 Movement Sword Form
    Saber Form 13 Posture Form

    But take this for what it is worth, not all of this came from Yang Chenfu or anyone else prior to Yang Zhenduo and possibly as new as Yang Jun

    My flavor of Yang form Tung Ying Chieh (Dao = Braodsword, Jain = straght sword

    Long Form
    2 fast forms
    2 Dao forms
    1 Jain form
    Staff form
    And of course associated Qigong forms

    But then Tung Sigung's first style was Wu/Hao style and one of the fast forms is a combination of Yang and Hao and I beleive at least one of the qigong forms is from Hao style.

    Sifu Tony teaches

    10 Form
    16 Form
    24 Form
    42 Form
    88 Form
    18 Movcment Straight Sword
    32 Movement Straight Sword
    42 Movement Straight Sword
    Wu Dang Tai Ji Straight Sword

    Now if I were to teach sets I learned from my first sifu, 24 form and 32 form straight sword they would look rather traditional and I would teach them traditionally but they are not actaully traditional forms.

    Nothing to be concerned about just an observation. Also I beleve his teacher is no in Flushing NY, but I could be wrong about that.

    As to the number of forms in the long form, 88 to 103, it all depends on how you count and from my flavor of Yang it is just called the Long form
     
  16. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    Xue,

    Thank you very much once again. Unfortunately, the Denver Shaolin Tai Ji Institute is probably not going to work for me at this time. :( Sifu Tony has a very small window of availability. Monday, Wednesday and Friday between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00pm are what he has in general on two of those days he would only have from 5:00 until 6:00pm.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, it would be private sessions one day per week. Work and other family commitments would prevent me from training during those days of the week at the specified times. My 9 year old daughter has Tae Kwon Do lessons beginning at 6:00pm and I normally do not leave my place of employment until close to 5:00pm.

    So, the Gao style Ba Gua Zhang still looks like it is the best option thus far from a scheduling standpoint. I am going to work out with that group Saturday morning, the 30th. The classes are 1 1/2 hours long and only one day per week. Wish me luck!
     
  17. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Gao style Ba Gua Zhang is pretty cool, enjoy the training.
     
  18. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    I am sure that I will enjoy it. I have not trained actively for many years so I really need to for many reasons. My daughter's Tae Kwon Do instructor has been lobbying to get me to start training there. While it is a very good for for her at this time, it's just not what I am looking for. I have expressed that to him as politely as I could but he still keeps asking! :D
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I came form TKD but it was years ago before it was an Olympic event.
     
  20. ebozzz

    ebozzz Yellow Belt

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    My daughter's dojang is affiliated with the ITF. There is a school across the street from it that teaches more of an Olympic style of training but I didn't like it as much. The place where she is suits her very well. It's student base is mostly kids. There is no Cobra Kai type of mentality. They have several programs that encourage the class to stirive for educational excellence and to be responsible human beings. As a parent, that stuff is really my job but it's nice to have a resource to reinforce what I am already passing on to her. :)

    Check this out now. The Chinese cultural center that Shaolin Hung Mei teaches out of also has a Yin style Baguazhang class!

    http://www.academychinesearts.org/programs/index.php

    http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/group_Colorado.html

    I just had the pleasure of speaking with the instuctor via telephone. I liked what I heard from him and I have permission to pay a visit to their class in the near future.

    I also found out the school in Boulder that was teaching Gao style Baguazhang is no longer in operation. That concerns me a bit as the only other options for Gao style that I have been able to find would be two individuals that teach in the park that I mentioned earlier. Are they still going to be around for the next several years as I work to increase my knowledge & skill? I would hate to get started only to find out after a short period that the training was ending.

    The Sin Lung Kwoon and The Yin style Baguazhang class appear to have some good roots. What I mean is that they have been around a while and from the looks of it, they plan to be around a lot longer. That's important to me.

    I would not be able to make all of the class times that are available so I actually communicated with Sifu Mike Bingo of the Sin Lung Kwoon to get his opinion on how beneficial it would be for me to attend the Saturday morning class on a regular basis and occasionally a Monday or Wednesday session as time permits. His thoughts were as follows....

    That makes me feel better about the possibility of getting my Xingyiquan. :D I would have to try to make some changes so that I could devote more time to in class training down the road.

    The instructor of the Yin style class stated that the one class a week is more about passing on new information and correcting things than actually practicing. He stressed that it was absolutely necessary that I put in enough work away from class to get anything out of the training. He also included that there were extra classes on a sporadic basis.

    This search is narrowing down. Whatever I decide to do, it is not going to be easy logistically or in the effort/commitment that it requires. I have to get my mind in the right frame....123
     

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