"Torture" or testing ordeals?

[shihansmurf]

A long test where endurance and will power is not neccessarily dangerous. Not allowing water breaks is, and putting people through it that aren't ready for it is, but done with safety in mind and proper preperation its not a life threatening experience.

As for what can be tested in 4 hours that can't be test in 45 minutes. Well, what can be tested in a full marathon compared to a quarter marathon? The techniques used in that event are far less complex and with far fewer of them. In fact, why don't I just run half a block and call it a day, multply the time out to cover the whole distance and call that my full marathon time?

Because its not the same, running half a block when you are fresh is one thing, continuing to run 4 hours later is a entirely different thing.

Good analogy.

However, distance running and fighting are very different sports that require different rubrics to measure proficiency. Distance running requires a lower output of energy over a long time whereas fighting is typicaly a short duration, high energy output event. I would think that sprinting would be more appropriate.

I understand the need for stressful, scenario based self defense training. I understand the need to condition students. I'm not entirely sure that I agree that it should be a required portion of grading. My teacher requires that we perform a conditioning test before a rank test, as a result I do the same. It is an ongoing point of contention between he and I. I feel that a grading should be about skill at martial arts. I don't think it should be about
how well performing other sports or activities.

For example I wouldn't make promotion to brown belt dependent upon a student's ability to cook an omlette. I have never required my black belt candidates to build a bookshelf. I am training martial artists, not chef's nor carpenters.

I don't make my students write reports for belt rank. I am not an English teacher and they signed up for Karate not Comp101. I sure don't make them teach as a rank requirement. If they want to be instructors than they learn to teach, but that is on them. I am not the dean of a teaching college and they signed up for karate, not coaching classes.

To summarize, I think that karate tests should be about how well one perform karate. I think gymnastics (XMA, I'm looking at you here..), dance choreography(Musical forms and, again with the XMA), term papers, repetitions of religeous mantra, and the like belong elsewhere.

Just my view
Mark

As an addendum, I actually have no problem with the XMA thing, as long as XMA isn't being passed off as practical fighting skills. Those folks have simply evolved tournament karate to the level that is was already going and should be commended for pushing the envelope of that particular sport. It just isn't for me.

 

[Andrew Green]

It's a little odd to be arguing on this as I don't do testing, but here goes anyways

A fight is the goal in training, even if it is a goal that is never realised. I think most people agree on that, regardless of whether it is a street fight, a self-defence fight or a ring fight, the goal is to be able to fight.

However, we can't safely duplicate the stresses involved in a real fight. Simply based on the fact that it is "safe" it is not as stressful.

We can work around that by adding additional stress factors into it, its not perfect, but it does get you closer. Think boot camp, on a technical level you could train and evaluate the exact same skills, just less of the artificially induced stresses. You could get 8 hours sleep every night, no yelling and screaming, etc. But how does that teach you to perform under pressure? Which is the real question, when the pressure is high what are you going to do?

Long tests that push your body to its physical limits and make you either quit or push past them work in a similar way. They artificially increase the stress level on the body and mind and force you to perform under intense pressure, without the physical risk associated with real fights. In the same way boot camp artificially increases the stress on soldiers without actually shooting live rounds at them and killing off their buddies.

It's not a perfect simulation, but nothing is, at least nothing safe.

Now apart from all of that physical conditioning is very important in a fight, and you will burn through what you got at a much faster rate then you would in training. Have a look at the training regimes of higher level pro fighters, they are insane. Yet, a 15 minute fight with 2 breaks still very often completely drains them. Because again, the stresses on the mind and body are much greater when it is "for real" then in training, to compensate they do some really crazy cardio work in training, which takes them a lot longer then the 15 minutes a fight takes.

 

[Big Don]

Our tests have a fairly simple format
we answer questions about basics, techniques and katas
we do katas
we do basics in the air
we do basics on a bag or pad
we do techniques in the air
we do techniques (carefully!) on each other (ring of fire)
we spar either more advanced students, although they are becoming fewer as we advance, or instructors, it isn't full power and it isn't about winning or losing, it is about endurance, spirit, and perseverance.
After that we pick up the cauldron off the coals and carry it with our forearms when the dragon brand is deep enough we are finished... (ten brownie points for a citation for that last one...)

 

[kidswarrior]

After that we pick up the cauldron off the coals and carry it with our forearms when the dragon brand is deep enough we are finished... (ten brownie points for a citation for that last one...)

:rofl:

 

[shesulsa]

After that we pick up the cauldron off the coals and carry it with our forearms when the dragon brand is deep enough we are finished... (ten brownie points for a citation for that last one...)

I know! Kato and the Ring of Fire! No? OH! I know! Panda in Kill Bill!

:uhoh: No?

Uhhh ... what about Tanto in The Rifleman?

... uh ... uh ... uh ...

Kane in Kung Fu?

Can I have cookies instead of brownies?

 

[Andrew Green]

After that we pick up the cauldron off the coals and carry it with our forearms when the dragon brand is deep enough we are finished... (ten brownie points for a citation for that last one...)

Kung Fu / Kung Fu the Legend Continues w/ David Carradine

 

[Big Don]

Kung Fu / Kung Fu the Legend Continues w/ David Carradine

10 brownie points for you

 

[Flying Crane]

oh i see what you are saying FC, but the fact remains that if you are sure of the physical conditioning of your student, DONT PUT THEM UP to test.

If you are sure of it, you dont need to waste time during the test on it

Yeah, I don't see a need to spend a lot of test time on physical fitness. I think that can be accomplished during regular training, if you decide to mandate that as part of training. I don't see a strong reason to be testing it, tho. Lots of other material to focus the test on, time is limited.

 

[shesulsa]

Kung Fu / Kung Fu the Legend Continues w/ David Carradine

10 brownie points for you

You'd have to have highlighted the text in my post prior to Andrew's to see my real answer ... but I think Andrew needs brownie points more than me, so ...

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I don't agree with it but the person will probably survive the dehydration and it is yet another method of testing someone's willpower and ability to maintain finess under pressure. As far as 6 hour tests, it makes it all the more sweeter to look back on after you've passed. For any other opinion of mine, terry's already covered it.

 

[shihansmurf]

It's a little odd to be arguing on this as I don't do testing, but here goes anyways

However, we can't safely duplicate the stresses involved in a real fight. Simply based on the fact that it is "safe" it is not as stressful.


It's not a perfect simulation, but nothing is, at least nothing safe..

I don't think of it as arguing, more like pointed discussion

Your point about utilizing the heavy conditioning aspect of the test to introduce a heightened degree of stress is well taken, however if the point of our training is fighting proficiency then I would think that best way to introduce that stress would be to engage in heavy contact fights. A series of them, if fact.

Just a thought
Mark

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't think of it as arguing, more like pointed discussion

Philosophy major, everything is arguing

Your point about utilizing the heavy conditioning aspect of the test to introduce a heightened degree of stress is well taken, however if the point of our training is fighting proficiency then I would think that best way to introduce that stress would be to engage in heavy contact fights. A series of them, if fact.

Just a thought
Mark

Yup, fully agree.

 

[Lynne]

Tonight, I checked with two more black belts. Indeed, no water is allowed during our 6-hour Il Gup testing. I felt the need to check and recheck. It does sound unbelievable, but it's true - no water is allowed unless one has a medical condition that would warrant water intake.

It was mentioned that during an Il Gup test, one of the "kids" started to fall forward (began to pass out) and someone ran over and gave him water.

I said, "I just don't want to die during the thing." (Really, my main concern is my daughter testing - as a parent, who wouldn't be concerned more about their child than themself.) They said, "You won't. It goes quick. Just hydrate the week before."

My Il Gup evaluation is probably about 2 years away. I'm working, working, working on my fitness. I'm jump roping and doing sprints. Right now, I can't do squat thrusts as my toes have gotten worse. I might try taping my toes and see if that works. Going to a podiatrist is what I really need to do. Procrastination.

 

[Flying Crane]

no water is allowed unless one has a medical condition that would warrant water intake.

like being alive, and wishing to stay that way?

 

[Twin Fist]

sorry, i would quit and not look back

 

[Lynne]

like being alive, and wishing to stay that way?

It will be something if I'm more worried about lack of water than anything else before testing. Physical, mental and and spiritual strength have nothing to do with overcoming lack of hydration.

 

[terryl965]

Lynne one thing you can do to help your body is when working out drink less and less water. It will help your body adjust to this ordeal. I feel Sorry for you.

 

[ChingChuan]

Aren't people asking too much of a black belt? In quite some arts, becoming a black belt is rather the 'start' than the 'finish'... I'd expect a black belt to know the curriculum of that art, to be able to 'know what he's doing' - but I wouldn't expect him to truly master the art - isn't that where the higher dan levels are for? After all, that's where you start polishing your skills etc.

In my art (Pencak Silat) you'll need to know all 36 jurus if you want to reach the 'black' level - but that doesn't really mean anything. You'll know all jurus, some of their applications, but you don't know the art - knowing jurus will only facilitate the learning process. Ranks aren't important, because the number of jurus you know doesn't signify how much you know about the art... I suspect that we only have 'ranks' (certificates for how many jurus you know) because people need to have something to look forward to, as our training isn't centered around tests at all and my instructor always forgets to shedule them...

I haven't seen a 'black belt' test (jurus 1-36) yet but I've seen someone who tested for jurus 1-30. He had to do all of them, show a couple of practical applications and defend himself from a couple of attacks, and that was the test... It probably didn't last more than 45 minutes. My instructor allowed him a short break when everyone saw that he was really exhausted.

I wonder how people survive when they are tested for 6 hours without a break?

 

[Kwanjang]

This is coincidental, I administerd a four hour black belt test last night! First of all for a gup test I bleive nor more than 90 minites, I teach that the discipline of taekwondo has five sub-disciplines or componets; calesthentics to warm-up and prepare, Basic fundamentals, poomse, one-step sparring, free sparring. and They show me a couple of their favorite self-defense techniques (so they can express thier individualism)
All of the black Belt test I've taken have lasted 4 to five hours. To be honest, I applaud all those who have endured these marathon events, especially those that take a couple of days. (Respectful Bow) As far as black belt tests- I have always considered them (and gup tests) a test of the students character and their willingness to demonstrate all curricula required by their association and instructor- to do what it takes, the black belt is a special rank. I carefully watched for any possible injury. I think all chief exameners at test know this as well. Opion: the tougher the test, the greater the feeling of accomplishment for both the student and the examiner , for in his eyes, he is upholding a tradition.

 

[Flying Crane]

I said, "I just don't want to die during the thing."
...

They said, "You won't. It goes quick. Just hydrate the week before."

I don't believe this is a viable strategy. Your body needs constant hydration, it's not like fat tissue that the body can simply store up and use later if needed. You have a limited tank of water that your body can hold. When it becomes depleted, you run into trouble. You cannot fill a reserve tank the week before, in preparation. That's just the way it is.

Yes, you can condition yourself a bit by drinking less and getting used to the feeling of being thirsty and pushing forward inspite of it. But if you cross the critical threshhold, you will begin to have health problems regardless of your conditioning. And a six hour physical ordeal, especially if you are in a hot climate, can certainly do that, conditioning or not.

Even the process of conditioning yourself for this could land you in trouble. You might cross the threshhold during a practice session, and have heat stroke or something. Not a good practice. Stay hydrated.