"Torture" or testing ordeals?

[shihansmurf]

In the early 90's several Rangers died of hypothermia during training.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4DA103BF930A35750C0A963958260

West Point. Spotty at best.

http://www.citadel.edu/english/bullies&cowards.html

General military academy and fraternity hazing links.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/h/hazing/index.html?s=oldest&


Mark

 

[still learning]

Hello, The whole purpose of testing? ...is to see if the person(s) know the materials that is taught to them.

See their skill levels, and off course the physcial part....and show some endurance.

Question come's "How much"..."How long"? NO rules here?

Remember....All teachers should be aware....that each student should be ready for testing ....before testing! One test SHOULD NOT be the final answer.....it took months..years of training getting to the point for testing in each level.

In Judo,boxing and many other sports...the testing is actual beating the other opponent(s). NOT one long testing either....

If a student fails? ....whose fault? ......Each Teacher should know there students well enough, to know if they are ready and the testing is just a challenge for them.

Some people go to the extreme's for testing....others less....WHICH IS RIGHT OR BEST IDEA'S....for testing? .....NO RULES...JUST EACH PERSON BELIEFS!

In the end? .....it is the student who needs/wants to know if they are train correctly....testing is just ONE indicator.

Aloha, Driver licence testing? .....does it work?

 

[Brian King]

Deaths in military training are unfortunate but not unheard of, part of the life. Unfortunately needless deaths at public universities from hazing (the majority alcohol related) are also not unheard of but I have not been able to find credible information referring to any deaths from hazing at West Point or other military schools and the military schools have been around for a very long time.

I was just wondering. Not that big of deal to me as I never attended any university military or other but where I live people often besmirch and slander our military talking out of hand and exaggerating and speaking from ignorance and I like to stay armed so to speak, so that while conversing with said people I am not also speaking out of ignorance or emotion. (I AM NOT saying that anyone here was doing any of the above) I was just wondering if Deaf had sources for his comment so that I could be further prepared and educated, forewarned is forearmed after all .

Mark, thanks for the links. The West Point link was interesting, a death two years after the alleged hazing, from tuberculosis, yet was still indictable. I heard that a DA can indict a ham sandwich if they wish; perhaps this was another such case. Makes a person wonder about the politics going on at the time.

Sorry for the thread drift folks.

Regards
Brian King

 

[kidswarrior]

where I live people often besmirch and slander our military talking out of hand and exaggerating and speaking from ignorance and I like to stay armed so to speak, so that while conversing with said people I am not also speaking out of ignorance or emotion. (I AM NOT saying that anyone here was doing any of the above) I was just wondering if Deaf had sources for his comment so that I could be further prepared and educated, forewarned is forearmed after all .

Well, if I'm not mistaken, Mark is in the military now, so that's pretty solid street creds as opposed to besmirching the military. And as I said in my last post, my info comes only from military experience, so I'm not likely to bad mouth our military, either.

But have never felt compelled to research boot camp deaths in the 60s-70s due to fatigue/dehydration; just took my CO's word for it. But see I'll need to do that research tomorrow. (Way past my bedtime tonight). Wanta make sure you're forearmed, Brian. And maybe this is not as much drift as if seems, due to deep parallels. You're asking some good questions--got me thinking.

 

[tshadowchaser]

we are drifting off topic a bit with the deaths in boot camp

so having said that

Remember back when many of these deaths happened we as a nation where at war. The drill instructors where combat vets who would soon be going back into combat. They needed to know that the man/child in front of them would not quite or give in under pressure. Their lives might depend on that man soon.
Where the ones that died out of shape, did they have preexisting medical conditions or where they brutalized with out thought for their well being.

If someone wants to make a thread for this topic PLESAE DO SO.

now lets return to our original topic of testing
thanks
sheldon

 

[Brian King]

Kidswarrior, yes as I stated above, injuries and deaths do occur during military training, and as I tried to state as well is that is different than deaths from hazing at our military academy’s. There can be found many deaths, injuries and suicides (attempted and successful) from military training in all the worlds militaries, usually the result of poor leadership, or Murphy, it happens. Different types of hazing occurs as well, but in my opinion that is very different from saying that a “few have died” resulting from hazing in our military academies.

Please do research your CO’s version and your memory of the events as precision is something that we should all strive for, I know you agree, not just in our martial art skills but in all areas of our life. A person should be willing to test those things people say, taking everything at face value can become an excuse for laziness and ignorance in my opinion while a verification test now and then, not to prove the other person as a liar or embellisher or gossip, or to disprove or prove a specific fact for arguments sake, but to strengthen and test your own beliefs. To test your truths is vital and by testing others your learn how to test your own, which can be difficult as we invest so much in and often place high value in/on our truths. Testing others privately or publicly means that you have given permission for others to test you and to hold you accountable, which if you are normal force you to test your beliefs and sources. In this case my truth was that I did not believe that any hazing at our military academies could result in a student’s death. To test myself I did a search and could not find any evidence to the contrary, that is why I asked Deaf for sources, to further test and verify my beliefs.

So again the disclaimer, I am not accusing anyone here on this thread of deliberately insulting or besmirching the military, Mark, Deaf, you or me, we all fall under “anyone” I did not mean to drift this thread on the testing or torture question. A statement was written that I had not heard before and was I was merely seeking sources as I could not find any. I am hoping that people do not respond having to defend or prove by saying I heard once or the famous military “No ****, this really happened” LOL or “there I was”. Links of deaths or injuries that occur during training are valuable to me as I both teach and train and we train hard and honest and it is easier learning from others mistakes and situations than from experience I agree with Sheldon perhaps a separate thread might be started for that topic and discussion (the military and LEO sections perhaps) I am off to teach and will be off line till this late afternoon, so I hope that someone else can start that thread. Thanks.

Again sorry for the thread drift
Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[MJS]

My biggest concern is that no water is allowed during a 6-hour test (red belt evaluation to test for black belt) at our school. I realize that if everyone hydrated, then everyone would have to urinate. So what? When people are hydrating days before and then drink 1-1/2 - 2 quarts of water before the test and still end up with salt rings around their mouths and whatever dehydration symptoms they may have, it seems dangerous to me. But I don't make the rules and I will have to endure it like everyone before me. As far as I know, no one has passed out or died yet.

I don't understand the point though.

I understand the rigorous testing of physical fitness. I understand the in-depth testing of skills of course.

See, now IMHO, this isn't right. Even during a regular class, especially when its hot outside, I can't see not letting someone get a drink of water. As far as drinking before the test, I think it'd be best to drink a few hours before, rather than right before. As for drinking during the test...if anything, I'd say small sips or better yet, just rinsing your mouth with water. Watch a boxing or MMA fight...the fighters drink.

 

[shesulsa]

We were allowed water during the test - and I took every opportunity, brought a home-made electrolyte drink along with Powerade, gorp for blood sugar. I tried to stay away from it as much as possible, but I definitely felt the dehydration coming on after a few hours. Curiously, I didn't have to urinate during the whole test. :idunno:

I wholeheartedly agree that unless you're in the military or intend on doing some extremely serious stuff with your training, the deprivation factor is probably moot for many people coming to martial arts for things besides survival training.

I dunno. I think, Lynne, this has to be a decision for yourself. If you're interested in seeing if you can make it through this and have no medical conditions that would preclude you from doing it and want to really push yourself hard ... well ... there you go. If not ... I'd consider discussing the plan with your instructor panel.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Hydration is essential to survival and to the well being of an individual. I know in the old days it may have not been allowed but with the recent well published research into the subject I fail to realize why it would not be allowed in a long test

 

[lemon_meringue]

What exactly does it prove if you are able to go 6 hours full kilter with no water? That you have homeostatic mechanisims to rival your average camel? Well if that doesn't deserve a black belt, I don't know what does.

Not allowing a student water or bathroom breaks is simply not on. It's dangerous and unnecessary.

 

[shesulsa]

What exactly does it prove if you are able to go 6 hours full kilter with no water? That you have homeostatic mechanisims to rival your average camel? Well if that doesn't deserve a black belt, I don't know what does.

Not allowing a student water or bathroom breaks is simply not on. It's dangerous and unnecessary.

I don't disagree.

 

[shihansmurf]

Kidswarrior, yes as I stated above, injuries and deaths do occur during military training, and as I tried to state as well is that is different than deaths from hazing at our military academy’s. There can be found many deaths, injuries and suicides (attempted and successful) from military training in all the worlds militaries, usually the result of poor leadership, or Murphy, it happens. Different types of hazing occurs as well, but in my opinion that is very different from saying that a “few have died” resulting from hazing in our military academies.



So again the disclaimer, I am not accusing anyone here on this thread of deliberately insulting or besmirching the military, Mark, Deaf, you or me, we all fall under “anyone” I did not mean to drift this thread on the testing or torture question. A statement was written that I had not heard before and was I was merely seeking sources as I could not find any. I am hoping that people do not respond having to defend or prove by saying I heard once or the famous military “No ****, this really happened” LOL or “there I was”. Links of deaths or injuries that occur during training are valuable to me as I both teach and train and we train hard and honest and it is easier learning from others mistakes and situations than from experience I agree with Sheldon perhaps a separate thread might be started for that topic and discussion (the military and LEO sections perhaps) I am off to teach and will be off line till this late afternoon, so I hope that someone else can start that thread. Thanks.

Again sorry for the thread drift
Warmest regards
Brian King

Since the ability to quote multiple threads confounds me I'll respond to kidswarrior to start. You are not mistaken, I am currently on active duty with the U.S. Army. I am a Staff Sergeant, not sure how much street cred that's worth but I appreciate that you noticed. I hope to retire in a decade or two.

Now on to the meat and potatoes of what I'm intending to post.

Various forms of hazing have been part and parcel of military life, I would suspect, since the first cavemen banded together to defend their cave. Part of it is bonding through a shared hardship, part of it can be chalked up to rites of passage type experiences, and some to just plain bullying. I would say that an individuals personal tolerance level goes a long way in determining where, on that scale, a particular sort of hazing happens to fall. For instance in the Army we used to get "blood rank". When we would get our new rank pinned on us after we were promoted everyone in the unit that still outranked you would smash your new rank into the collar with their fists. This was done without the damnits on the back of the rank pins. I still have scars from my corporal promotion. I've known a few guys that suffered broken collars.

The practice is no more, due largely to the fact that our rank is on velcro patched affixed to our chests. No one is wiling to get punched in the sternum, as well they should not be. As a younger man that frequently suffered from testosterone poisoning, I was all about blood rank, getting kicked in the gut on belt rank promotions, marathon tests, and other such dangerous and pointless exercises of macho idiocy. We learn as we age, I guess.

If a martial art rank test is to be relevant as a rubric for determining skill in a particular art then that test must test skill in that art. If the test is set up so that what is really being tested is the ability to withstand exhaustive training conditions, m[FONT=&quot]asochistic tendencies, blind loyalty to the instructor or organization, dedication to the mythical "samurai ideal", or r[/FONT][FONT=&quot]eligious[/FONT][FONT=&quot] devotion then the testing requirements should be ordered to those ends. Should that be the case then I'm sure a 12 hour test including thousands of reps of kihon, exhausting conditioning tests, walking on coals, interpretation of koans or Bible passages as appropriate, self-flagellation and fasting would quite fit the bill.

Brian.

I didn't take any offense nor read into your posts any intent to paint my posts as disrespectful to the military. In fact, I find you tone to be polite and I appreciate that you defend us in debate with those that attempt to discredit us. Also no worries on the thread drift. Drift Happens:ultracool

Mark
[/FONT]

I'm not sure how I shrunk the font in the last lines of this post, sorry for the difficulty in reading it.

 

[Senjojutsu]

Hydration is essential to survival and to the well being of an individual. I know in the old days it may have not been allowed but with the recent well published research into the subject I fail to realize why it would not be allowed in a long test

My memory is being jogged - here is a "civilian source" of the concept that being tough means no hydration.

Generations of American football coaches with delusions of grandeur - to become like one of their heroes - famous Alabama college football coach Bear Bryant who in his early days held an infamously brutal football camp during 1954 down in Texas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junction_Boys

“The Junction Boys is the name given to the “survivors” of Paul “Bear” Bryant’s ten day summer football camp in Junction, Texas beginning September 1, 1954. The ordeal has achieved legendary status and has become the subject of a 2001 book The Junction Boys by Jim Dent and a television movie produced by ESPN.”

So think of all the high school/college football squads who suffered through summer workouts without water because of this tradition.

 

[Deaf Smith]

And some have died in "football' camps for that reason, though some of the kids may have had other undiscovered health problems.. but then that's also a good not to have such extreem test.

Football, like civilian martial arts, is not the Israeli army preparing for a very likely war! I can understand the military going to the edge and now and then a recruit, or even an experienced soldier, dieing.

But we are not the SEALs (hell week anyone?) We are not the Rangers (if you want to do the Ranger test, by all means join the Rangers!) We are not fighter pilots in a Red Flag test.

Sure a test can go on for an hour or two per individual. They can literaly test every technique, form, history fact, etc.. that is part of that art, but going to a life threating extreem is not.

Deaf

 

[Mike Hamer]

Wow, no water? Thats horrible!

 

[Cirdan]

Six hours without a water break? I wouldn`t put my left foot in a place where this is pacticed. It shows a dangerous lack of understanding of how the body functions.

On the other hand i have no problems with a high rank test being hard to the point where the general public would call it torture. Preforming under pressure is central to many arts.

 

[Brian S]

Can I sidetrack the thread for a moment?

What the hell does a 2,3,4 hour test prove/accomplish? from reading this thread people obviously do them... but to what end?

Are you training for Mass Battlefield combat ala Last Samurai? No "fight" is going to last an HOUR let alone 2,3,4... so I don't understand the purpose.

Can someone enlighten me? The longest test I have ever had was maybe 45 minutes, and that was demoing a large number of kata, movement ideas and fighting skills... what can possibly take 4-6 hours?

A right of passage? I have given and taken 4hr tests myself that tested my endurance and mentality.

I do believe the real test is done the years beforhand, the actual test is just a formality. Would you rather them just hand you the rank after so many hours of practice?

 

[Andrew Green]

A long test where endurance and will power is not neccessarily dangerous. Not allowing water breaks is, and putting people through it that aren't ready for it is, but done with safety in mind and proper preperation its not a life threatening experience.

As for what can be tested in 4 hours that can't be test in 45 minutes. Well, what can be tested in a full marathon compared to a quarter marathon? The techniques used in that event are far less complex and with far fewer of them. In fact, why don't I just run half a block and call it a day, multply the time out to cover the whole distance and call that my full marathon time?

Because its not the same, running half a block when you are fresh is one thing, continuing to run 4 hours later is a entirely different thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

said it before and I will say it again, you want to test my fitness? make me spar more. I aint running, doing sit ups or any other kind of warm ups as part of a test.

well, on the other hand, my nikejustu has saved my butt far more times than my fighting technique.

Running can be a first line self defense method. Don't underrate it. I could see keeping some amount of running as part of regular training, as well as being able to prove the ability to run at a certain level on a test. Run and fight, run some more and fight. See what that does to you. Sometimes those punks are tenacious little bastards and keep after you for longer than you expect.

Just food for thought. I personally don't feel that a belt test should have a huge physical fitness component, but I can certainly see a justification to include it, even on a nitty gritty self-defense level. It can be viewed as part of the bigger picture.

 

[Twin Fist]

oh i see what you are saying FC, but the fact remains that if you are sure of the physical conditioning of your student, DONT PUT THEM UP to test.

If you are sure of it, you dont need to waste time during the test on it