TOP 5 Ninjutsu associations????

[Brother John]

Just wondering, what are the top five Ninjutsu associations?
I've heard of two (Bujinkan... obviously).
Just curious really.
Your Brother
John

 

[Kempo Guy]

As far as I know, there are only three that are "recognized"... Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
As far as I know, there are only three that are "recognized"... Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.

Well, they are definitely the biggest ones, but not the only ones. There are plenty of independent organizations out there as well. Quite a few have come from the aforementioned "big three," but there are a few that have developed their own systems as well. I am not at all familiar with the history of the Jinenkan, but I do know that the head of the Genbukan, Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura, was a former high-ranking member of the Bujinkan. Rick Tew's Tew Ryu, and To-Shin Do, which is headed up by Stephen K. Hayes, also formerly of the Bujinkan, are two "independent" (i.e. currently apart from the "big three") organizations that come to mind. There's also a guy near me in NJ that has founded his own system, called "Angelic Ninjutsu" -- I don't know whether or not he claims any former connections with the three "-kans", but I believe he currently considers himself an independent organization as well. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few more individuals and organizations out there as well that I am unaware of.

 

[pknox]

See also this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2396

 

[heretic888]

Rick Tew's Tew Ryu, and To-Shin Do, which is headed up by Stephen K. Hayes, also formerly of the Bujinkan, are two "independent" (i.e. currently apart from the "big three") organizations that come to mind.

Its not quite clear if Stephen Hayes' organization is entirely "independent" of the Bujinkan. I have heard different points of view on this. On his site, he states that Toshindo students can qualify for ranks in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu if they wish. Hayes himself still travels to Japan every year to further his training with Hatsumi-soke, as well.

The Tew ryu doesn't teach Ninjutsu, so I don't believe it counts.

There's also a guy near me in NJ that has founded his own system, called "Angelic Ninjutsu" -- I don't know whether or not he claims any former connections with the three "-kans", but I believe he currently considers himself an independent organization as well. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few more individuals and organizations out there as well that I am unaware of.

As I understand it, if they don't come from the Takamatsu-den at some point or another, then they don't teach Ninpo (let alone Ninjutsu).

Laterz.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by heretic888
As I understand it, if they don't come from the Takamatsu-den at some point or another, then they don't teach Ninpo (let alone Ninjutsu).

That may in fact be true, but authentic or not, some of these orgs do exist.

 

[Cthulhu]

Isn't Tew Ryu some sort of off-shoot of whatever the hell Frank Dux was teaching?

Cthulhu

 

[heretic888]

Isn't Tew Ryu some sort of off-shoot of whatever the hell Frank Dux was teaching?

Yes. Tew ryu "ninjitsu" is an offshoot of Dux ryu "ninjitsu".

I am still amazed by these individuals' raw arrogance to name a "ryu" after themselves....

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by pknox
I am not at all familiar with the history of the Jinenkan, but I do know that the head of the Genbukan, Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura, was a former high-ranking member of the Bujinkan.

Actually you have it reversed. Shoto Tanemura was never a high-ranking member of the Bujinkan. In fact he only trained with Hatsumi Sensei a few times and only trained with Takamatsu Sensei during a few hours when Hatsumi Sensei took a couple of students with him during his training.

Jinekan was founded by Manaka, who is one of the original students of Hatsumi Sensei. He was the high-ranking member of the Bujinkan you were thinking of. I believe Manaka and Hatsumi Sensei had a disagreement with the way the art was being taught or something like that.


Deaf

 

[Deaf]

ToShinDo is an independant. They do not pay dues to Bujinkan nor go by any of the guidelines for membership stated by the Bujinkan.

Hell, from what I have heard, SKH does his own Godan test for ToShinDo 5th Degree black.

It is a totally different art if you ask me so yes I would consider this an independant and totally seperate from the Bujinkan as is Genbukan and Jinekan.

Hmm...interesting that you know Hayes still travels to Japan every year to train with Hatsumi Sensei.

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by Deaf
Actually you have it reversed. Shoto Tanemura was never a high-ranking member of the Bujinkan. In fact he only trained with Hatsumi Sensei a few times and only trained with Takamatsu Sensei during a few hours when Hatsumi Sensei took a couple of students with him during his training.

Jinekan was founded by Manaka, who is one of the original students of Hatsumi Sensei. He was the high-ranking member of the Bujinkan you were thinking of. I believe Manaka and Hatsumi Sensei had a disagreement with the way the art was being taught or something like that.


Deaf

This is wrong, Deaf. Tanemura sensei was a *very* high ranked member of the Bujinkan, receiving quite a number of Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi sensei.

As far as the dispute between Manaka sensei and Hatsumi sensei...please don't get into that here. I consider everything spread around in the Buj like these types of stories here-say. If you didn't hear it from Manaka sensei or Hatsumi sensei, you simply don't know what caused it.

 

[Jay Bell]

ToShinDo is an independant. They do not pay dues to Bujinkan nor go by any of the guidelines for membership stated by the Bujinkan.

And you know this how?

Hell, from what I have heard, SKH does his own Godan test for ToShinDo 5th Degree black.

Heard from whom?

It is a totally different art if you ask me so yes I would consider this an independant and totally seperate from the Bujinkan as is Genbukan and Jinekan.

And what gave you this opinion, Deaf?

Hmm...interesting that you know Hayes still travels to Japan every year to train with Hatsumi Sensei.

Is isn't some secret that Hayes still trains with Hatsumi sensei.

 

[Bujingodai]

As Manaka S once said to me in an email about it. He stated that sometimes you need to walk your own path like a man. He stated that he has no animosity to Hatsumi Sensei and is still in contact. Thats about all he had to say about it.

As for the other orgs. I'm the resident indie, fake, whatever you wish to call it. There are many orgs out there. Many ninja cowboy groups and many splinter groups. Also a lot of serious orgs without ties to the Takamatsuden that are training in the spirit of the Shinobi so to speak.

Who do you wish to know about, I founded a forum for the indies myself so I know a few.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Deaf
Actually you have it reversed. Shoto Tanemura was never a high-ranking member of the Bujinkan. In fact he only trained with Hatsumi Sensei a few times and only trained with Takamatsu Sensei during a few hours when Hatsumi Sensei took a couple of students with him during his training.

Jinekan was founded by Manaka, who is one of the original students of Hatsumi Sensei. He was the high-ranking member of the Bujinkan you were thinking of. I believe Manaka and Hatsumi Sensei had a disagreement with the way the art was being taught or something like that.


Deaf

I stand corrected.

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by pknox
I stand corrected.

Actually Phnox, I stand corrected. I mininterpreted some information that I have heard from a different high ranking bujinkan member. The only thing I was correct was that Tanemura did not train as much with Takamatsu as he claims.

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
originally posted by Deaf : ToShinDo is an independant. They do not pay dues to Bujinkan nor go by any of the guidelines for membership stated by the Bujinkan.

And you know this how?

I have been told from other students within the ToShinDo organization.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
originally posted by Deaf : Hell, from what I have heard, SKH does his own Godan test for ToShinDo 5th Degree black.

Heard from whom?

Last september a good friend of mine tested for his 5th dan in ToShinDo at the Hayes' Festival. As stated above I mentioned that this was for ToShinDo 5th Degree Black. No mention of the ranking being associated with the Bujinkan.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Posted by Deaf: It is a totally different art if you ask me so yes I would consider this an independant and totally seperate from the Bujinkan as is Genbukan and Jinekan.

And what gave you this opinion, Deaf?

I trained in both, I actually started with Hayes and then moved to Bujinkan after he changed over to ToShinDo. I also still have a few friends within the ToShinDo realm and even though their techniques are based on what Hayes' learned in the Bujinkan, it is a different animal with different philosopy and viewpoints on how to do the techniques

I'm not bashing the art nor Hayes, just stating some information.

Deaf

 

[pknox]

Then let's stand together! It's always good to have friends

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Deaf
I trained in both, I actually started with Hayes and then moved to Bujinkan after he changed over to ToShinDo. I also still have a few friends within the ToShinDo realm and even though their techniques are based on what Hayes' learned in the Bujinkan, it is a different animal with different philosopy and viewpoints on how to do the techniques

A different thread for sure, but I'd love to see some info on how T-SD and the Bujinkan differ in their approaches. It's always good to keep an open mind, and see what other people are doing as well. Deaf -- I'll start the thread - can you start us with some examples, and maybe then we can have a comparative discussion?

 

[pknox]

Here's the thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11515

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Just because Takamtsu's art was made public and grew rapidly due to (I think) SKH, do not discount those "ninja" family arts that still exhist but continue to maintain a low profile. Also Saito Ninjitsu, a family art taught by the Saito Family, was first taught publicly in 1966. Autumn Moon Temple

Also with all the actual lack of historical evidence, documentation and controversy surrounding all claims (even Hatsumi Densho) by those of Ninpo and "Ninja" arts it is rather hard to say exactly how many "ninja" Clans actually exhisted. Not to mention that there are some koryu arts that have ninjutsu ryuha within their bujutsu.

My 2 cents