TOP 5 Ninjutsu associations????

[heretic888]

Just because Takamtsu's art was made public and grew rapidly due to (I think) SKH, do not discount those "ninja" family arts that still exhist but continue to maintain a low profile.

Oddly enough, none of these "ninja family arts" can demonstrate a solid link to Japan.

Also Saito Ninjitsu, a family art taught by the Saito Family, was first taught publicly in 1966. Autumn Moon Temple

I hate to break this to you, but Saito doesn't claim that their martial art is a "ninja" tradition. Just the opposite, actually.

Also with all the actual lack of historical evidence, documentation and controversy surrounding all claims (even Hatsumi Densho) by those of Ninpo and "Ninja" arts

Uhhh.... right.

is rather hard to say exactly how many "ninja" Clans actually exhisted.

If you are referring to specific familial clans and not ryuha, then the generally accepted numbers are 45 clans of Iga and 53 clans of Koga.

Not to mention that there are some koryu arts that have ninjutsu ryuha within their bujutsu.

I hate to break this to you, but that doesn't make those koryu "ninja arts" nor does it mean they contain Ninpo.

Laterz.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

quote: Just because Takamtsu's art was made public and grew rapidly due to (I think) SKH, do not discount those "ninja" family arts that still exhist but continue to maintain a low profile.


Oddly enough, none of these "ninja family arts" can demonstrate a solid link to Japan.

Apparently you must mean a current living link (ie person) in Japan. A Saito person on another board, Tazekan (sp) gave a fairly detailed discription of the family's immigration to Hawaii in 1904 and that the art was brought over with Grandfather who ws the last living Master of the art. Sounds solid enough because it is highly probable.

quote: Also Saito Ninjitsu, a family art taught by the Saito Family, was first taught publicly in 1966. Autumn Moon Temple

I hate to break this to you, but Saito doesn't claim that their martial art is a "ninja" tradition. Just the opposite, actually.

No, you are wrong. The website say that Mr Saito claims "they were not Ninja". I take that to mean assassins and spys. It doesn not mean their art is not Ninpo since many people from BJK, GBK, JBK state that "ninjutsu" is more than that definition.

quote:Also with all the actual lack of historical evidence, documentation and controversy surrounding all claims (even Hatsumi Densho) by those of Ninpo and "Ninja" arts


Uhhh.... right.

Koryu.com has a piece on Ninjustu. Other "High Ranking" students of Hatsumi's have written articles as to the convoluted history of "ninja".

quote: Not to mention that there are some koryu arts that have ninjutsu ryuha within their bujutsu.


I hate to break this to you, but that doesn't make those koryu "ninja arts" nor does it mean they contain Ninpo.

Maybe, maybe not but they legitimate koryu schools and are listed as having ninjutsu as part of their art. Does that mean they were ninja? I honestly couldn't tell you.

 

[Jay Bell]

It doesn not mean their art is not Ninpo since many people from BJK, GBK, JBK state that "ninjutsu" is more than that definition.

Actually that's not true. Takamatsu sensei was the person who began using the term "Ninpo". If it isn't Takamatsu-den, it isn't Ninpo, plain and simple.

 

[heretic888]

Apparently you must mean a current living link (ie person) in Japan.

No. I mean none of these martial "traditions" can trace themselves concretely to Japan. Tracing a person's ancestry to Japan is not the same as tracing the art they claim to inherited to Japan.

A Saito person on another board, Tazekan (sp) gave a fairly detailed discription of the family's immigration to Hawaii in 1904 and that the art was brought over with Grandfather who ws the last living Master of the art. Sounds solid enough because it is highly probable.

I can also provide evidence that my greatgrandfather immigrated from Lebanon to the United States in the early 1900's. Doesn't mean I inherited some super-secret Lebanese martial art no one has ever heard of (or, more importantly, have proof of).

No, you are wrong. The website say that Mr Saito claims "they were not Ninja". I take that to mean assassins and spys.

Ahem. Saito said very flatly his martial art is not a "ninja tradition" (i.e., it was neither developed nor used by the ninja clans in feudal Japan). Exactly what part of that do you not understand??

It doesn not mean their art is not Ninpo since many people from BJK, GBK, JBK state that "ninjutsu" is more than that definition.

"Ninpo" and "ninjutsu" are two different animals.

And, for the record, Saito claims to teach neither Ninpo nor ninjutsu in his art. He claims to teach what he calls (realizes is an incorrect spelling) "ninjitsu" for the express purpose of differentiating it from the linguistically correct "ninjutsu".

Koryu.com has a piece on Ninjustu.

Based on lies and second-hand information.

Other "High Ranking" students of Hatsumi's have written articles as to the convoluted history of "ninja".

Or one, anyway. :shrug:

Maybe, maybe not but they legitimate koryu schools and are listed as having ninjutsu as part of their art.

Not exactly a rare occurence.

Does that mean they were ninja?

No.

Laterz.

 

[bujinclergy]

Originally posted by Deaf
Actually you have it reversed. Shoto Tanemura was never a high-ranking member of the Bujinkan. In fact he only trained with Hatsumi Sensei a few times and only trained with Takamatsu Sensei during a few hours when Hatsumi Sensei took a couple of students with him during his training.
Deaf

The Takamatsu Sensei part is probably true but where did the "only trained a few times with Hatsumi Sensei" fable come from... They parted ways in the eighties but I was under the impression that Tanemura Sensei represented Hatsumi as one of the instructors for his system(s) for quite a few years before that....

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by bujinclergy
The Takamatsu Sensei part is probably true but where did the "only trained a few times with Hatsumi Sensei" fable come from... They parted ways in the eighties but I was under the impression that Tanemura Sensei represented Hatsumi as one of the instructors for his system(s) for quite a few years before that....

I believe Deaf acknowledged that a few posts above.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by heretic888
I am still amazed by these individuals' raw arrogance to name a "ryu" after themselves....

Isn't the Togakure-Ryu named for it's founder, Daisuke Togakure, as well as the mountain villiage/shrine where he lived originally??

Your Bro.
John

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Actually that's not true. Takamatsu sensei was the person who began using the term "Ninpo". If it isn't Takamatsu-den, it isn't Ninpo, plain and simple.

So what was it refered to before that?

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Brother John
Isn't the Togakure-Ryu named for it's founder, Daisuke Togakure, as well as the mountain villiage/shrine where he lived originally??

Yes, but it was named after him posthumously...

Jeff

 

[heretic888]

Isn't the Togakure-Ryu named for it's founder, Daisuke Togakure, as well as the mountain villiage/shrine where he lived originally??

Yes, but it was named after him posthumously...

*raises eyebrow* Ummm... you sure about that??

I was under the impression the name 'Togakure' came from the name of the village itself (now Togakushi). The story, if I recall correctly, was that the man's original name was Nishina Daisuke and he later changed his name to Togakure Daisuke in memory of his home (or something like that).

The name 'Togakure' itself (meaning 'hidden door' if I'm not mistaken) seems to have its origins in the Japanese orign myth around the sun goddess Amaterasu.

Just me thoughts, of course. Laterz.

 

[Jay Bell]

Meaning...that it was called Togakure ryu after his passing.

 

[heretic888]

Whoops... my bad.

I thought we were talking about the village, not the ryuha.

Laterz.

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by heretic888
I thought we were talking about the village, not the ryuha.

Maybe I should have quoted better in my reply, to avoid confusion... You said:

Originally posted by heretic888
I am still amazed by these individuals' raw arrogance to name a "ryu" after themselves....

And then Brother John said:

Originally posted by Brother John
Isn't the Togakure-Ryu named for it's founder, Daisuke Togakure, as well as the mountain villiage/shrine where he lived originally??

...which seemed to imply that since Daisuke Nishina named a ryu after himself (which in fact, he did not), it was ok for these neo-ninja soke to do so, hence my comment of:

Originally posted by Kreth
Yes, but it was named after him posthumously...

Does it make sense now?

Jeff

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Kreth
Yes, but it was named after him posthumously...

Jeff

TRUE...
I didn't think about that little tidbit.

thanks
Your Bro.
John

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Jay Bell wrote:

Actually that's not true. Takamatsu sensei was the person who began using the term "Ninpo". If it isn't Takamatsu-den, it isn't Ninpo, plain and simple.

OK I find this interesting. If the word Ninpo did not exist as you say before Takamastu, then by heretic's reasoning and that of some other BJK people, it is not a real word. Or at least it is as valid as "Shorinjin" and "Ninjitsu" used by the Saito's. Since the Saito art was first made public in 1966, does that make them the first ones to use the term Ninjitsu? I don't know. Does anyone have any periodicals that may mentions when this term was first used?

Also Heretic

Due to none too careful transliteration, the art of the Ninja was originally written with the Americanized "jitsu" rather than the more correct "jutsu." Mark Saito, Sr. had always used the term "jitsu" and made no effort to change it to "jutsu." In fact, he remained adamant that his art was not the art of Ninjutsu: "This is the art of Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu--we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins."

you should include the entire quote. It clearly indicates that the Saito's did not want to be associated with the Japanese view of ninja as assassins. Since he is the head of the family I guess he can use whatever terms he decides to coin.

Masaaki Hatsumi wrote in The Historical Ninja:

Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T'ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor's court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled.

As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan's history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals.

Some BJK members dissavow any Chinese influences in thier art whatsoever. If its part of the history why attempt to leave it out?

 

[Jay Bell]

OK I find this interesting. If the word Ninpo did not exist as you say before Takamastu, then by heretic's reasoning and that of some other BJK people, it is not a real word. Or at least it is as valid as "Shorinjin" and "Ninjitsu" used by the Saito's. Since the Saito art was first made public in 1966, does that make them the first ones to use the term Ninjitsu? I don't know. Does anyone have any periodicals that may mentions when this term was first used?

No...didn't say that. I said he was the first to use the term...as in everyday usage. Don Roley (thanks, Don) told me that the term Ninpo can be found in very old texts....it seems Takamatsu sensei brought it to light.

The term Ninjutsu has been around for quite a long time....long before Saito's claim to it.

The Bansenshukai speaks of Koga and Iga ryu Ninjutsu. I believe 1676 came before 1966.

Some BJK members dissavow any Chinese influences in thier art whatsoever. If its part of the history why attempt to leave it out?

I don't follow...who exactly is trying to leave out the link to China? During this age, fighting concepts made their way to Japan. These were tuned into the ryu of the time.

 

[heretic888]

OK I find this interesting. If the word Ninpo did not exist as you say before Takamastu, then by heretic's reasoning and that of some other BJK people, it is not a real word. Or at least it is as valid as "Shorinjin" and "Ninjitsu" used by the Saito's.

No, because the kanji making up "Ninpo" actually mean what Takamatsu and Hatsumi said they mean. Unlike the kanji making up the words "Shorinjin" and "Ninjitsu", which do not mean what Saito claimed that they mean. These words (ninjitsu and shorinjin) seem to be the creations of an individual not so well versed in the Japanese language --- which is very interesting, if this is a traditional Japanese lineage to begin with, how the successor can have such a blatant ignorance of the correct spelling and meaning of the concepts of his own ryuha.

Since the Saito art was first made public in 1966

I don't suppose you have any proof for this claim??

does that make them the first ones to use the term Ninjitsu? I don't know. Does anyone have any periodicals that may mentions when this term was first used?

No. Ninjutsu has been in use since at least the 1600's. The mistransliteration of jutsu versus jitsu probably dates to around the time of World War II.

you should include the entire quote. It clearly indicates that the Saito's did not want to be associated with the Japanese view of ninja as assassins. Since he is the head of the family I guess he can use whatever terms he decides to coin.

I did include the entire quote in which Saito (and not the author of the article in question) was actually speaking.

The truth is plainly clear to anyone capable of reading English. Saito does not consider his art a Ninja art. Period.

Some BJK members dissavow any Chinese influences in thier art whatsoever. If its part of the history why attempt to leave it out?

This is news to me.

No...didn't say that. I said he was the first to use the term...as in everyday usage. Don Roley (thanks, Don) told me that the term Ninpo can be found in very old texts....it seems Takamatsu sensei brought it to light.

Jay, could you elaborate on this point a bit more, please??

Laterz.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Jay Bell wrote:

No...didn't say that. I said he was the first to use the term...as in everyday usage. Don Roley (thanks, Don) told me that the term Ninpo can be found in very old texts....it seems Takamatsu sensei brought it to light.

OK. But I do have a J2E dictionary that was printed in 1962 and though it does have Ninjutsu (they call it "occult art") listed it does not have Ninpo. I would have thought, since it is an older printing that it would be in there. Oh well.

Jay Bell wrote:

No. Ninjutsu has been in use since at least the 1600's. The mistransliteration of jutsu versus jitsu probably dates to around the time of World War II.

I can agree with that especially with the usage of Ju Jitsu.

Jay Bell wrote:

The Bansenshukai speaks of Koga and Iga ryu Ninjutsu. I believe 1676 came before 1966.

Yes I've seen on a Genbukan site by Ron Roy however, I was talking about the word ninjItsu. Also none of those those texts list the number of Ninja families that ever existed. Neither does the BRD.

heretic wrote:

No, because the kanji making up "Ninpo" actually mean what Takamatsu and Hatsumi said they mean. Unlike the kanji making up the words "Shorinjin" and "Ninjitsu", which do not mean what Saito claimed that they mean. These words (ninjitsu and shorinjin) seem to be the creations of an individual not so well versed in the Japanese language --- which is very interesting, if this is a traditional Japanese lineage to begin with, how the successor can have such a blatant ignorance of the correct spelling and meaning of the concepts of his own ryuha.

Do you have the kanji that Saito is using? I have only seen the Kanji /hitokokoro/ used but not the kanji for jutsu.
Possibly because he was 2nd gen American and grew up during WWII when things Japanese were not that popular. Mr. Saito is the only one who can answer that.

Karasu wrote: Since the Saito art was first made public in 1966

heretic replied:I don't suppose you have any proof for this claim??

I did see a dated note book of a student from that era (I think the guy is or was a professor of literature at a Stanford University or another college). Also in researching this topic I have talked with two other students from that era as well. Shannon Phelps was not one of these two. Additionally I have seen old film footage taken around the late 60's to about 1972 (one of the dates on the film leader) of Saito Sr. teaching this art. I don't own them so I cannot make copies. Does that help?

It is my understanding that Mark Saito Jr. and his wife (who is Japanese and fluent in the language) are planning a trip to Fukushima to do some geneological and Saito Ryu research. When? I have no clue.