TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by speedking668, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    All martial arts have their own basic movements, distances, core responses etc. Training is largely about in ingraining those traits and habits. Trying to learn two different skill sets simultaneously confuses the brain and makes learning harder.

    It's almost always better to wait until you are proficient at one specialist art and then to allow your improved balance and coordination speed up the learning of a second art than to try to learn two from scratch.

    The obvious exception to this is an integrated training program as one might find in mma. But that is a different thing than learning judo for two hours one day then tkd for two hours another day.
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Because style doesn't matter?
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't agree with this. I've trained with too many people who trained multiple arts, and both paths seem to be reasonable. Brain confusion is a part of the learning process. It will probably take longer to learn the first art if it is learned alongside the second, but it won't double the learning time. And in some cases, waiting until the first art is ingrained makes it difficult to get the core concepts of the second art (like transitioning from Shotokan's angles to Aikido's curves), making the second art take considerably longer to integrate.

    It's a pretty individual thing. Some folks prefer to dig deep into the first art before adding another. Others do better with the variety of multiple arts.
     
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  4. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Was my description of how to train for effective skill style specific?
    Because that was really the more relevant thing I've said in this thread if you want to lose that argument again.

    More useful to the thread poster might be to correct my suggestions on gaining effective skill if its incorrect.
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Because learning matters.
    The way you throw punches in Wing Chun is not the same as the way you throw punches if you're studying TKD. It may be faster to learn how it's done in A before you worry about how it's done in B. Not always, and not for everybody, but certainly for a significant portion of students.
    Personally I don't care if someone wants to study multiple arts at the same time. If it slows down their progress, that's their business, not mine. They'll be promoted when they're ready, regardless of how long it takes.
     
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  6. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    It depends. If you’ve got 3 nights per week to train, you can either dedicate all 3 nights to one art, or split them, doing say 2 TKD and 1 Judo. No different than if you did basketball 2 nights and soccer 1 night. You’re not going to progress in either as quickly as you would if you did one all three nights.

    If you can train every day and each dojo is open opposite nights, then it would slow you down much if at all.

    All IMO.
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    If your main goal is to use TKD as a self-defense then you need to make the head instructor aware of your goal so that you can get the training you need in order to use TKD in that manner. If you don't tell the head instructor then you'll probably learn Olympic TKD
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Its incorrect.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The way I throw jabs is different to the way I throw crosses. Different power generation. Different footwork. But for some reason I can learn both at once.
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    You really do love the strawman argument, don't you? Did I say you couldn't learn two things at once, or did I specifically say you could?
    Of course, the actually issue here is not entirely different strikes, but the same strike done by different systems. The way we teach a given kick may not be exactly the same as how it's taught in a CMA. Try to do both at the same time, and you may well find yourself doing the CMA version in my class. Which may well mean your progress in TKD will be slower than someone who sticks with a single art.
    But you knew that already, I'm sure.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think learning two systems from a single source/instructor (or two techniques with significant differences like your jab and cross) makes it easier to learn them in tandem, because the explanations will make more sense together. This is the case with most systems that include both striking and grappling, and with a lot of MMA training, I suspect. Of course, that can often happen (more or less by accident) even with two different, unrelated instructors. The real issue with learning two at once is when both instructors are really strict about some of the conflicting principles, and have very different ways of explaining things (which can mask the similarities that make it easier to learn both).
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This would be the part that would be most confusing, is where there's overlap that's close, but not close enough, and the instructors are each focused on teaching their approach. Trying to learn two conflicting approaches to a roundhouse kick at the same time, for instance, would confuse the heck outta me.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    My jab cross example is about how quickly you can adopt two conflicting principles. Just nobody notices because you learn them both at once.

    When you are with instructor A. You do instructor A method. When you are with instructor B. You do B. method.

    If you were to say do muay thai and TKD. you can throw light deceptive kicks and then throw hard thai kicks. Which becomes harder for him to predict what is coming out.

    I mean we have seen Steve Vick. The two modules work. Even to the point the guy is switching stances and changing systems mid fight. Again because going from a jab to a cross is a change in system.

     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The issue with the kicks is learning two very similar ones, where the instructors want it done the way they teach. So, for instance, one is teaching a kick that turns the hip over. The other teaches the same kick without the hip turned over. That would almost certainly make learning that one technique harder in both styles, if it's being learned at the same time, because you're trying to develop two competing habits at once. It wouldn't make it impossible, of course, and it might only add 25% to the overall learning curve at any given point (so, 25% behind where you'd be on one if learning them separately - not sure we'd ever be able to measure it without a large-scale randomized study with controls). So, it would make it more difficult, but probably not a major problem for most folks.

    As I said earlier, it's probably pretty individual. Some folks need to stay on a single detail for a long time. Some folks thrive on more variety. Most folks are in the middle somewhere, I expect.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I mean If you were to go to a next level martial artist like Saenchai we would learn that overlap.



    This multi style coupling is hard but you are a better martial artist if you can master it.
     
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  16. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    I would suggest that you stop reading things written by people who don't know what they are talking about.

    Taekwondo is highly effective for self defense. So is aikido. So is ANY martial art that teaches you situational awareness and from which you gain confidence. Bad guys profile for victims. They look for people who don't appear confident, and especially for people who are not aware of their surroundings.
     
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  17. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Maybe, but it wasn't style specific, so your lame attemlt to strawman me into contradicting my established beliefs has failed.

    So now please elaborate... surely you've had enough time to come up with something?
    About what was I incorrect?

    Edit: my opinion on duel training was just that and only refers to raw beginners.
    I concede it's not true for everyone and even if I'm right it is more fun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It wasn't style specific but you can't train two styles at once? Because training different styles effect the style you train.

    MMMMMMM..........

    Anyway look at the posts above.
     
  19. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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    Based on my own experiences I would say it really depends on how your TKD school trains. The school I attended, we did olympic style sparring and compliant self defense techniques (joint locks etc). We did not spend a lot of time working on punches. So I would say we did not train in a way that was particularly useful for a SD situation apart maybe from the kicks. But again all these things are in TKD, it depends on whether they are being taught and practiced effectively. I have since started grappling and learned just how darn difficult it is to to a joint lock when the other person doesn't want you to do it.

    As far as some of the other aspects go that were mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I myself am unlikely to get into a "Street" situation, we live in a good neighborhood, I rarely go to the city at night, m job doesn' t take me sketchy places etc. OTOH my daughter will be in her teens soon, high school, then college etc where she might get into some unfortunate situations. So I am very happy that she is training and hope she'll keep it up.
     
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  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I love watching Saenchai. He almost brings a bit of Capoeira feel to Muay Thai. He definitely understands malandragem.

    I guess that footage is from seminars where he spars some of the participants? That would be an awesome opportunity.
     
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