TKD and real self defense

[Errant108]

Then in the next sentence I said I was joking and that we will never agree what SD is.

What is self-defense? How do you train for it?

What really makes no sense is your comment about service people especially the USMC since my father trained and was part of the USMC Master Drill Instructor tought Judo and Karate to them, he spent thirty eight years in the service and I do not remember them using sport as a form of SD but what do I know being such a person who never ever had any real SD tought to me.

A couple things here.

Judo utilizes sport methodology in order to teach its skills, so your father's background backs up what I'm saying. Further, a hand to hand combat instructor like your father would be one of those few who do actually understand hand to hand combat. Even today, most members of the USMC do not spend a great deal of time on unarmed combat, and what they do train in is heavily based in Muay Thai and Brazilian jujutsu, and trained via sport methodology.

Just because someone is a Marine, does not make them a hand to hand combat expert. MCMAP and programs like it cover very basic areas of unarmed combatives, and those serious about training in it undergo extensive crosstraining in other systems.

So I guess the Olympic TKD programs for the Army Marines and Air Force help teach SD principle WOW, that is goon to know since I teach sport TKD as well. Now I am going to train my people to keep there hands down and do nothing except roundhouses and backswings for the sake of SD principles.

You're still stuck in the world of the one dimensional fighter. A boxer is only a boxer. A TKDin is only a TKDin. I would hope anyone training for self-defense has long abandoned this view, and those teaching self-defense realize that they cannot limit themselves to one system.

No art, Taekwondo or otherwise, contains all of the necessities needed to address comprehensive self-defense. Some people will always be better at striking, some people will always be better at grappling, but you have to be able to do them all to a certain degree when it comes to self-defense.

You do not have to be a Judoka to be able to defend yourself with clinchwork and throws, but if you are not training clinchwork & throws in a manner similar to a Judoka, then you're not going to be as successful. The same goes for your striking.

Weapons work also needs to come into that equation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which experts? Name them?

I am unsure why you are asking because you specifically stated, "SD experts on forums who like to trash talk about sport fighters but can't fight themselves out of a wet bag."

This is internet forum crowds in discussion, not published authors that we are talking about, and I am not going to sit here and try to remember every cutesy nick name that various forum members have christened themselves with on the web.

That's the problem, you're looking at individual sports. I'm speaking training methodology. I'm talking about aliveness. I am talking about how skills are developed, and toward what end.

Of course I am looking at individual sports. On a TKD board, the whole sport vs. art issue comes down to the individual sport of WTF TKD rougly 80-90 percent of the time. And I have been around enough to know that the sport emphasis in most dojos is generally narrow and about the only 'alive' training that the students get; students of whom 90% quit after getting their black belt and never enter a competition.

Pretty much none of the discussions of sport vs. SD in the TKD section have to do with sport in the broad sense, but in the training seen in most TKD schools, which is often sport based to make it fun for the kids.

No, the fight is not over once a contestant is submitted. If you tap, and I release you before the referee has called the fight, then you can fight on. It has happened before, and "winners" have been knocked out because of it. Remember, a submission is a joint lock. If I want to, I'll break it, and people have had their joints broken in matches when they refused to tap out. The Gracies were notorious for this back in the day. The referee ending the match is the equivalent of your friends backing you up or the authorities arriving. Remove any of those factors, and the fight is not over.

Thanks!

Absolutely wrong, as most good self-defense instructors will tell you, and I can tell you after a decade of being a bouncer. Altercations always follow a set of rules, human behavior. The ability to recognize those rules, play by them, and know when you can bend or break them often determines who will survive the outcome.

While I agree with you 100%, I would not consider this gamesmanship.

You're still stuck in the world of the one dimensional fighter.

Not personally, but...

A boxer is only a boxer. A TKDin is only a TKDin. I would hope anyone training for self-defense has long abandoned this view, and those teaching self-defense realize that they cannot limit themselves to one system.

...most of the students in TKD schools are. And they do not care to be otherwise. As I stated above, 90% of them will quit upon receiving their black piece of cloth and parchment decorated with Hangul. That is what they signed up for, that and maybe to get toned up.

Also stated above, given that this is the TKD section, most often when sport vs. SD comes up in this section, unless otherwise stated, it is WTF/olympic fighting and point/stop fighting that is being discussed, not martial sport in general.

The big debate in this is not about high ranking competative athletes but about schools that focus (either mostly or entirely) on sport/competition, and their students who generally quit after two years because someone handed them a black piece of cloth and parchment decorated with Hangul.

The serious competative athlete in a martial sport is more than likely able to handle themselves quite well in self defense.

No art, Taekwondo or otherwise, contains all of the necessities needed to address comprehensive self-defense. Some people will always be better at striking, some people will always be better at grappling, but you have to be able to do them all to a certain degree when it comes to self-defense.

You do not have to be a Judoka to be able to defend yourself with clinchwork and throws, but if you are not training clinchwork & throws in a manner similar to a Judoka, then you're not going to be as successful. The same goes for your striking.

Weapons work also needs to come into that equation.

Certainly, I agree with you in this 100%.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Its not just tkd students that quit once they get their "black piece of cloth". This happens in all martial arts , its just that most people use tkd as the example of people quitting once black belt. I doubt many people would train for 2 or 3 or 4 years just to get a black belt , it seems a lot of hassle to go to just to get a piece of cloth. I know a lot of people who quit due to injury , moving away or to try another art but we dont get anybody at our club who would want to train for that period of time just to quit when they get a black belt. Im not saying no one does but I havent met many who would , except maybe young kids who will quit no matter what sport they do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Its not just tkd students that quit once they get their "black piece of cloth". This happens in all martial arts , its just that most people use tkd as the example of people quitting once black belt.

Absolutely. It is pretty much endemic. Certainly, nobody implies that this is unique to taekwondo, something that has been stated many tiimes in this section. But it is taekwondo in particular that is being discussed in the taekwondo section.

I doubt many people would train for 2 or 3 or 4 years just to get a black belt , it seems a lot of hassle to go to just to get a piece of cloth. I know a lot of people who quit due to injury , moving away or to try another art but we dont get anybody at our club who would want to train for that period of time just to quit when they get a black belt. Im not saying no one does but I havent met many who would , except maybe young kids who will quit no matter what sport they do.

Most taekwondo schools live or die by the size of their kids classes. Probably true for 80% of the martial arts schools in the US, but definitely for taekwondo. And by kids, I mean from school age through high school, not just young kids.

Daniel

 

[msmitht]

I have trained in many styles since 1979. Main style is KKW TKD. Have spent last 7 years in BJJ and spent many years boxing. I also have worked nights as a bouncer at an Irish pub for the past 9 years.
Most self defense techniques go out the window once you get hit. I don't care what style you practice. A Bjj black belt will fall from a knee kick and a TKD black belt will fall from a punch. So what. We all know that most self defense instructors could not fight their way out of a paper bag. All we can do as martial artists is train and look for the best style that suits us. If it is not a combat style then it will probably not help you in a fight. Period!

I did once see a 76 year old lady elbow an agressive man in the face and knock him out. Granted he was drunk and about the same age as her....but it worked and she never trained a day in her life.
Now shut up and go train...ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TigerLove]

Hello! This is my first post on this forum.

Well, i think it's not right to say for any martial arts that it's right for self defense. It's most up to practicioner. I train for long time, but i could beat up most of the people before i trained anything. I am strong and fast, and my body working great while under stress (this is most important - most of the people lose all their moves after receiving good punch). Since i train, i fighted few time on street, and acomplished my ma knowledge very well. I beat up three guys once..and i know guy who train half of his life but he is very bad at real fight. Like i said, there is no definitely something, it's from person to person. More we repeating some move on training more are body will use it while under stress.

Finally, i think that people who train something have a bigger chance to win a fight - if they keep their knowledge while under stress. If we are under fear, we can know all moves off the world, but won't accomplish anything.

Also, with my opinion goes this: "I don't fear of a man who trained thousand kicks, a fear of a man who trained one kick thousand times."

Does somebody agree with me? And why not? Greetings!!

 

[Errant108]

I am unsure why you are asking because you specifically stated, "SD experts on forums who like to trash talk about sport fighters but can't fight themselves out of a wet bag."

That was a response to Terry's flat-out insulting and illogical post. It was his own words, mirrored back at him. Since he believes those who train for MMA are unable to defend themselves, I would be very interested in knowing what he qualifies as "self-defense" or who are his "self-defense experts".

Of course I am looking at individual sports. On a TKD board, the whole sport vs. art issue comes down to the individual sport of WTF TKD rougly 80-90 percent of the time. And I have been around enough to know that the sport emphasis in most dojos is generally narrow and about the only 'alive' training that the students get; students of whom 90% quit after getting their black belt and never enter a competition.

Which is sad, because the alive training program of Olympic TKD can easily be expanded to include other skills supposedly found in TKD to provide a broader base of alive self-defense training. Rather than training Olympic-style for sparring, and then using dead, static drills like one-steps and hoshinsul.

...most of the students in TKD schools are. And they do not care to be otherwise. As I stated above, 90% of them will quit upon receiving their black piece of cloth and parchment decorated with Hangul. That is what they signed up for, that and maybe to get toned up.

Also stated above, given that this is the TKD section, most often when sport vs. SD comes up in this section, unless otherwise stated, it is WTF/olympic fighting and point/stop fighting that is being discussed, not martial sport in general.

The big debate in this is not about high ranking competative athletes but about schools that focus (either mostly or entirely) on sport/competition, and their students who generally quit after two years because someone handed them a black piece of cloth and parchment decorated with Hangul.

And this pretty much proves the point that overall, TKD is not a viable system for self-defense in most cases.

 

[Errant108]

Hello! This is my first post on this forum.

Well, i think it's not right to say for any martial arts that it's right for self defense. It's most up to practicioner. I train for long time, but i could beat up most of the people before i trained anything. I am strong and fast, and my body working great while under stress (this is most important - most of the people lose all their moves after receiving good punch). Since i train, i fighted few time on street, and acomplished my ma knowledge very well. I beat up three guys once..and i know guy who train half of his life but he is very bad at real fight. Like i said, there is no definitely something, it's from person to person. More we repeating some move on training more are body will use it while under stress.

Finally, i think that people who train something have a bigger chance to win a fight - if they keep their knowledge while under stress. If we are under fear, we can know all moves off the world, but won't accomplish anything.

Also, with my opinion goes this: "I don't fear of a man who trained thousand kicks, a fear of a man who trained one kick thousand times."

Does somebody agree with me? And why not? Greetings!!

It's not just a matter of what you train, it's how you train.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which is sad, because the alive training program of Olympic TKD can easily be expanded to include other skills supposedly found in TKD to provide a broader base of alive self-defense training. Rather than training Olympic-style for sparring, and then using dead, static drills like one-steps and hoshinsul.

We used to do that in our TKD classes on specific night, but once the hapkido class became firmly entrenched, our taekwondo class pretty much went all competition style. GM Kim's mentality is that he does not charge extra for students to come to the hapkido class and it is easier to do it that way than to have one art subdivided between WTF sport training and specific SD training.

Our hapkido class has free sparring with little to no padding, depending on who is there. It is a lot more involved than WTF sparring and certainly is not for everyone. The students who just want to kick-fence stick with the TKD program, while those who want a more well rounded program do both.

And this pretty much proves the point that overall, TKD is not a viable system for self-defense in most cases.

In most schools, from what I have seen, TKD sparring is the unarmed equivalent of saber fencing. Like fencing (or little league sports), people will often do it for a little while and then move on to something else. Certainly, the mini-mall dojos have learned to ride that trend quite well.

Neither good nor bad; depends on what you are looking for.

In terms of SD, the worst thing that one can do is not fight, so I suppose that if one went off on an attacker with kicks while yelling loud, they would at least attract attention and maybe dissuade an attaker.

One would hope that even in straight sport setting that a BB would be good at kicking the tar out of an attacker's torso.

Daniel

 

[Errant108]

Daniel, I tried sending you a PM response to your PM, but it said you were blocking PMs. Yes, it's me.

Are you coming to my seminar on the 17th? It'll be good times!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, I tried sending you a PM response to your PM, but it said you were blocking PMs. Yes, it's me.

Are you coming to my seminar on the 17th? It'll be good times!

That is weird. I had changed my e-mail address on the site and had not yet confirmed the new one, so maybe that is why, because I am not purposely blocking them. Thanks for the heads up?

17th of October? Where and on what? My apologies for being clueless.

Daniel

 

[Errant108]

That is weird. I had changed my e-mail address on the site and had not yet confirmed the new one, so maybe that is why, because I am not purposely blocking them. Thanks for the heads up?

17th of October? Where and on what? My apologies for being clueless.

Daniel

Info here.

Let anyone you know who might be interested know!

 

[TigerLove]

It's not just a matter of what you train, it's how you train.

Sure!