Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by now disabled, Aug 13, 2018.
Real fighting is not the primary purpose of budo
Thoughts on this blog?article
Too long for me to read right now, but I skimmed it and noted almost at the end, a box which contained "He also holds a 3rd Dan in Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, the secretive art that Morihei Ueshiba learned from Sokaku Takeda." I'm not sure what that means, but I don't think Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu is secretive. And Morihei Ueshiba seems to have separated himself from Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, aparently considering it to aggressive.
Just my thought.
There is more to the split than that and Ueshiba did teach Daito-ryu, as for secretive well hmmmm no now it is not it des raise points of interest to me anyway lol, and the vid that is contained within it does at one point raise something ok just that sensei's view but I will let you when you have time view it and see if you pick up on the point I did.
It's a lot of self indulgent waffle about not very much,
I'm brief, lots of secrets killer techniques have been lost, and now ma are not as good at fighting as they once were, I'm assuming he knows the killer techniques and will teach them at a price?
Which ignores one or two important points, 1) that being skilled at ma will make you a better fighter than you were before 2) tournament fighting might reduce your skills by volume, but should make you far better at the ones you do use
Guillame is experienced, and knows what he's talking about... there are minor things I'd have a different view on, but in the main, there's no disagreement with his assessment and commentary. Was there something you felt was less accurate in it?
Not to put words in Guillame's mouth, I feel that his mention of Daito Ryu as being "secretive" is a reference to it's claimed history as a secret art that only became revealed publicly when it was taught by Sokaku Takeda in the late 1800's/early 1900's... at that point, it was very much considered (or at least promoted as) a "secret art"... as far as "Ueshiba seems to have separated himself from Daito Ryu"... well... yeah... in the late 1920's.... Ueshiba died in the 60's... so the "split" (really wasn't a split so much as Ueshiba's personal development using what he had learnt from Takeda) was a while back...
Yeah... I think we read different blog articles... or, more accurately, we read them from very different perspectives.... what you're saying I didn't see there at all...
I don't know the man nor have I heard of him before. Nor have I studied Daito-Ryu. And work and home life have been keeping me too busy of late so I still haven't read that whole article. I respect your beliefs and have no reason to doubt them.
You may be correct about Daito Ryu having been considered secretive. I think you have more knowledge on Japanese arts than I have, or for that matter want to have. But to say in these days that Daito Ryu is secretive, without explanation, since as you pointed out it stopped being secretive a very long time ago, imho borders on being misleading. As if he is belted in an art that most can't be belted in because it is 'secretive,' and he is better than others for breaking a secretiveness that most cannot. If you interpret that differently, so be it. I would even be glad to hear your reasons for that. BTW, I didn't use the word 'split' as to me the connotation of that could be considered pejorative and I wanted to avoid that. The very little I know of Ueshiba and Aikido I have learned from the internet and it seems that Ueshiba felt he needed to move to promote less aggressiveness and less damage to opponents. Again, the little I know makes me believe he succeeded.
I would totally agree with the bolded part.
Well, Guillame is French, and speaks French, Japanese, English, and maybe one or two other languages, so occasionally things can get a bit muddled across languages... so while it may have been better to have been described as "once secret", I don't think I'd quite go so far as to say it's misleading... the rhetoric of Daito Ryu themselves has long held that their art is (historically) a secret art of the domain... the veracity of that is another question, and, I think, a bit off topic for this thread.
Yeah... not sure what you're meaning there...
Reasons for what? Ranking in a "secret" art?
One thing I will add, though, is the nature of "secret" when it comes to Classical Japanese systems... it doesn't mean no-one knows about it, nor that it's content is not known... it's that membership, and a good deal of the "inner" teachings are not publicly shown or demonstrated... and this kind of thing is quite common. Katori Shinto Ryu has a rule that says it's not permitted for members to discuss the teachings, even with family or other members... Shinto Muso Ryu was said to have only ever demonstrated one (official) kata in the past so as to maintain it's secrecy... and that was an official art of the Fukuoka domain and ruling clan (the Kuroda's)... Kage Ryu Choken Battojutsu never publicly show their kata at all... demonstrations are always variations, rather than the actual techniques... and this in only a couple of examples.
Yeah, now disabled used the term "split"... I continued that, as I felt it had little nuanced difference between it and "separated"... but I understand your concern.
The thing to remember with Ueshiba is that he was a right wing enforcer for many years in his youth... using what he knew to co-erce or threaten people... his original dojo was known as the Jigoku-dojo, or "Hell Dojo", due to the amount of pain endured there... it was really only after his experiences in and around WWII that he began to change to a more pacifistic approach... and that was resisted by a number of his students, for the record. The connection with the Omoto-kyo sect of Buddhism also helped influence such changes in direction, of course... as did meetings with the Kukishin Ryu... and a few other occurrences... none of that means he didn't succeed, of course, but there is a school of thought that suggests that it was not entirely the direction that all the students agreed was the best... and it's also worth noting that Ueshiba was far from the first to suggest such an ideal... Yagyu Sekishisai (Munetoshi) is famous for his concept of satsujinto and katsujinken (the sword that kills, and the sword that gives life)...
Cool. That was more for Jobo, of course.
No, I was talking more about your reasons for interpreting his meanings differently. And I think you have done that below. Thanks for that. Very interesting and informative.
Interesting to know.
I understood and thought it very apt.
I used split for a reason nothing to do with what he was teaching at the time It was to do with other reasons which are not altogether clear and a few suppositions have been made
I was also told that secret could well be interpreted as ...not telling or letting your "competitors" know what you were all about as a school
I think I am also right in saying Ueshiba Morihei did not get Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda Sokaku he got a Kyoju Dairi with conditions on said (not totally uncommon) (and one of those conditions may have led to the split ) and if I am no mistaken then the first six volumes of the Daito-ryu soden are all from Ueshiba Morihei teachings (compiled by Hisa Takuma he did get Menkyo Kaiden)
Softening by Ueshiba Morihei possibly and as you have said that may have different reasons and I'd add his age to that to as by the time he was filmed more he was an old man.
I do not know if you will agree but imo the Aikido that was exported and is seen really today is the Aikido of Ueshiba Kisshomaru
Might also be worth adding that even today there is still among the senior Shihan a thought that Aikido is not commercial
He has a website and a you tube channel ...He has conducted some good interviews that are (to me) interesting esp the ones with the old (gulp shouldn't really say that) Shihan that do if you know what you are listening for give snippets of info that can and (again for me ) fill in gaps and add to what I already know (not being big headed in saying know)
As for studying Daito-ryu no I would not expect you t have lol ...That said if you do ever get the time looking at Daito-ryu will possibly surprise you in that what was taken out or adjusted in Aikido is fairly obvious.
Also if you want the nearest Aikido to the pre war then that lies (well it did I have not been there in a long time and there has been a "split" lol there) in the Yoshinkan (not the demo stuff btw)
interesting article. My only comment is that I challenge the assertion that the term budo is omnipresent in today's society. If he is referring to society at large, I think he might be surprised to learn that most people don't know or care what the term budo means . maybe they do, but I think it's what we might call a term of art.
The rest is pretty in the weeds. Interesting maybe, but not sure how useful.
did you watch the vid?
No. Read the article. Is there a video?
should it inthe middle of the blog I think or it should be lol it about Daito-ryu there a few snipets of interest from that sensei (well I thought so lol but I'm an or was an Aikidoka lol)
I'm not sure this is English, big guy. Are you on a phone or something?
Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary - Kobayashi Kiyohiro Sensei and Takumakai in Tokyo
that vid....hit the cc tab and ya get the subs lol
Okay. Is it related to the assertion that budo is omnipresent in society? If not, I’m not all that interested in a documentary on daito Ryu.
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