thoughts on Tang Soo Do as taught by Hwang with a minor in Wing Chun as taught by Yip Man

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Gabriel Binette, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Gabriel Binette

    Gabriel Binette White Belt

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    thoughts on Tang Soo Do as taught by Hwang kee bing mixed in with a minor in Wing Chun as taught by Yip Man

    i have a strange series of events to lead me to wing chun today.

    i am 5 years TSD and was recently looking at some soft styles.
    Wing chun is so different, but the harmony of 2 would be interesting.

    i have access to the roots of the traditions so im sure there pretty good sources of instruction.

    has anyone seen anyone cross the 2 styles? id like to see what it could look like.
     
  2. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    Won't work , you have a side on stance in Tang Soo Do don't you ?
    Wing Chun is based on the premise of a square on stance , where we have equal opportunity to use either hand or either leg equally.

    The square on stance typically sunk down and pidgeon toed , coupled with the guard forms a wedge shape that not only attacks the centreline of the opponent but also attacks their balance.

    This type of pressure in manipulating the opponents balance could not be exerted in quite the same way from a side on stance.

    You might be able to use your long range kicks to bridge the gap , but then once arm contact is made you would have to square up , I can't really see it being compatible.
    Plus the fact its already been done before with Jeet Kune Do.
     
  3. Gabriel Binette

    Gabriel Binette White Belt

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    so if it wont work then why did you bring up jeet kun do?

    what ive experienced so far (witch is very little, humbly) in ving chun, is that it creates patterns when one is offered a limb from an opponent, i see many choices offered in the soft style that allows you to select more appropriate responses to an opponents attack.

    wether i decide to stand side on in a sparring match which i will, i can learn how to counter jam up and combo the opponent in a much more appropriate fashion.

    i see it being quite a useful art tactically.
    seeing as how hard styles are ment to hit hard, thus expending much more energy in the process especially for a humble novice of a hard art like myself.

    i see the energy conservation due to fewer hard guesses at defense or heavy attacks to be an improvement in the economy of the sparring side of a hard art.

    hard arts are generally meant to break limbs and break through defenses.
    i see such poor conservation of energy in my sparing i feel that to add a little yin to my yang would help harmonize the overall energy expenditure for point sparring.


    so yes you have a valid point, the 2 arts are so fundamentally different they would not mix in the sense that you had imagined, but to be clear i dont mean to mix them outwardly.

    i mean to keep both arts fundamentally separate.
    yet draw from one or the other more when appropriate.


    hows that? is that more clear?
     
  4. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    I mentioned Jeet Kune Do because I don't believe they make it work either.
    The mechanics of Wing Chun is meant to work for Wing Chun.

    If you wish to apply Wing Chun properly it is based on the correct stance , the proper generation of power comes from the stance , the ability to redirect incoming force comes from the stance , the deflections and trapping are designed for the stance.

    Its like pushing a broken down car , I can exert more force if I stand behind it and push square on than if I stand side on and push it , that is the principle of Wing Chun

    Countless hours are spent performing Sil Lum Tau and the practice of Chi Sau , all of which are to develop the stance and create reactions that are independent of conscious thought , and then you go and expect it to work properly when you don't use the correct stance.

    It is a misconception that Wing Chun is a soft style , whilst the power is generated in a relaxed fashion , the end result for the opponent is very hard indeed.

    You mentioned creating patterns with the limbs from the opponent , the main objective is to hit the opponent in the head ... hard.
    The only time the skill of Chi Sau is applied is when the opponent is attempting to obstruct our strikes , if there is no obstruction then Chi Sau is not used .

    Gratuitously playing around with the opponents arms instead of striking through is not in keeping with the Wing Chun principle of directness and is a great way to get your head punched in .
     
  5. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I went from karate and taekwondo to wing chun. The arts are totally different and you have to go to wing chun with an empty mind, leaving everything that you learned from tang soo do and approach it with no preconceived notions and no expectations. Then it should be ok. I would keep the two separate. What I did find was that my wing chun background helps my Hapkido hand techniques.
     
  6. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I've trained in some JKD which incorporate some wing chun and I agree you've got to keep them separate. At least at first. After some time, when you have learned more, you can go back and start seeing some of the wing chun in the various applications for your hyung. A good person to contact on this board would be Master Jay S. Penfil. Master Penfil has trained in Wing Chun and is very good at pointing out the places in the hyung where you can find it. He even incorporates some of the drills from wing chun into into his TSD teaching.
     
  7. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    We only did the square stance in Wing Chun (actually Wing Chun Do for me) when doing Sil Lum Tao. The majority of our time was spent in a stance which was called Bijong, or closed bijong, which was 80% of your weight on the back leg and 20% on the front, with the shoulders square.


    When we did Sil Lum Tao, I mainly thought of it as a dynamic tension exercise where you develop your muscles, tendons and ligaments. We really didn't concentrate on the stance aspect all that much.
     
  8. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I see very little Wing Chun in JKD. Some basic trapping maybe, and some simultaneous block and punching. But that is about it.
     
  9. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I can't speak for other JKD studios, but Minnesota Kali Group incorporated some of the exercises at least. Two of my students in Minnesota came from the local Wing Chun school and we were at least able to communicate. My experience is definitely limited. Ask Master Jay S. Penfil, who is a member here, about the fit. He has way more experience then I do and is able to explain the fit. Like I said, he incorporates many of the exercises into his interpretations of the hyungs. It's fascinating.
     
  10. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    In the Tsui Seung Tin lineage the Sil Lum Tao stance or Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma is the fighting stance , it affords equal opportunity to kick with either leg and is mobile and stable in any direction.
    To me it is common sense , why would you spend hours upon hours practicing Chi Sau and the Sil Lum Tao in a square on stance and then when it is time to fight you use a totally different stance.

    The Sil Lum Tao works on many attributes but mainly it develops "forward force" , "elbow force" , relaxation , concentration , balance , stance and awareness of the optimum angle for the arms and the centreline.

    Many years later in the higher stages of training , the practitioner will work on cultivating an internal energy flow whilst performing the Sil Lum Tao , this is known as "Nim Lik" which is the mind force of Wing Chun.
    It is used to energise and stabilise the fighting techniques without the apparent need for the use of any brute strength.

    I did not know that there were Wing Chun lineages that used a lead leg stance until I started to become aware of the William Cheung and Leung Ting lineages
     
  11. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    What would be an example of a Wing Chun exercise that the Minnesota Kali Group has incorporated?
     
  12. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Bruce Lee used that stance as well. I know that his main Wing Chun influences and teachers were William Cheung and Wong Shun Leong, so maybe that is where Bruce Lee got it from. Off topic, but what do you think about the Wing Chun shown in the two Ip Man movies?
     
  13. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm no expert at either system, but even Tang Soo Do people don't need to minimize their targets when at close range; so, they are both compatible. If you ask me.:) If you are chest to chest, it would make no sense to turn your body. Its just different rules of thumb for different ranges.
    Sean
     
  14. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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  15. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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  16. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    I have only seen the first one , but I thought the wooden dummy form was well done , although some of the fighting sequences were a bit outlandish.
     
  17. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I liked the movies. The second one was playing in the theaters here for a while. I don't know how accurate it was but at least it gave a different perspective on GM Yip Man's life.
     
  18. Don Daly

    Don Daly Yellow Belt

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    I have done Tang Soo Do, Kempo and Jeet Kune Do. I believe it is better to achieve black belt in one before doing too much with another. The wing chun techniques can be used in close range while the tang soo do is used in long range, but I have found that you really need a good instructor and mook jong practice to be able to fully adapt to the wing chun styled techniques. Tang soo do, if done correctly, could be said to have hidden techniques such as wing chun styled parries within the blocking techniques and hidden grab/holds within the punches, but this is subtle and secondary to the main action. As you practice with the mook jong you will get the feel for this.123
     

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