This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts *** **WARNING -- EXPLICIT CONTENT**

[ZapEm]

The guy has more than just the advantages of weight and power. He's chemically enhanced with the right amount of alcohol (lower inhibitions, relaxed muscles and positive adrenal dump). He's also trying to really do damage when he strikes. The willingness to do more damage than your opponent is a real advantage. Doormen don't train to fight, or even train in self-defense. Their hands are tied by the law - they're just regular citizens and they can be arrested and charged with assault, as they often are. They are trained to talk down a situation and de-escalate it though. In this situation, the heavy guy is outdoors and off the premises. 99% of doormen would consider the job done at this point, and wouldn't be looking for a fight. Also, from the video, it seems the heavy guy just has one technique - a wide haymaker - and I wouldn't be so sure he's a boxer.

That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.

 

[Marnetmar]

In Wing Chun we call these kicks to the knee or shin , low heel kicks.
They are one of the first kicks you learn , they can be used in conjunction with hand striking and trapping the hands.

They are fast , powerful , and can cause quite a lot of pain when the kicker has shoes on.
It doesn't have to break the leg , shatter the knee cap or even sprain the leg.

It only has to cause pain , a momentary distraction so that you can get in and finish them off with your hands.
Get a hammer and give yourself a tap at the top of the shin and you will have some idea of what it feels like.
Or walk into the edge of a low coffee table.

I think people are imagining that the technique is used in isolation and then you stand back and see what the effect has or has not been.
It is not that at all , it is always swiftly followed by chain punching or a rapid barrage of various types of low kicks.

But it is also not out of the realm of possibility that the person may be dropped from the low heel kick , you just don't bank on it , always follow up straight away with more techniques.

One of the problems with the pain argument I find is that if the aggressor is intoxicated, pain often won't be an issue, or even a distraction for them.

 

[elder999]

The guy has more than just the advantages of weight and power. He's chemically enhanced with the right amount of alcohol (lower inhibitions, relaxed muscles and positive adrenal dump). He's also trying to really do damage when he strikes. The willingness to do more damage than your opponent is a real advantage. Doormen don't train to fight, or even train in self-defense. Their hands are tied by the law - they're just regular citizens and they can be arrested and charged with assault, as they often are. They are trained to talk down a situation and de-escalate it though. In this situation, the heavy guy is outdoors and off the premises. 99% of doormen would consider the job done at this point, and wouldn't be looking for a fight. Also, from the video, it seems the heavy guy just has one technique - a wide haymaker - and I wouldn't be so sure he's a boxer.

That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.

1) The mention of the professionalism of the security staff is pretty spot on-they shouldn't be out there, and, more to the point, if they trained together properly, they would simply have overcome him with mass-not "fighting," simply immobilizing, and then tossing him out-which may well be what happened before all this.As for this guy, he clearly isn't trained to handle multiple opponents- he's just chanced upon making the first strategy for that situation work: he's taking them on one at a time.

2) "Chemical enhancement" does nothing against trauma, usually: most people, no matter how enhanced, simply aren't going to be capable of standing with a broken leg, let alone fight-depending upon the break......

As for the OP, it leads to several questions: 90% of which "black belts? T

Tae Kwon Do black belts? Which tae kwon do black belts? Kyokushin black belts? Judo black belts? Jujutsu black belts?
(THis is funny, coming from a Kyokushin, judo and jujutsu black belt , boxer, with a black belt in tae kwon do.....but I'm a congenital klutz: either that guy would cream me, or I would kill him...:lfao: )

You get my point though-there's all kinds of black belts, so "90% of Black belts" is a B.S. statement...though I have to agree that quite a few people who attain rank in martial art have never been hit, and have never been in a fight in the street.....

.....that;s kinda part of what martial arts are about, I thought...

 

[mook jong man]

One of the problems with the pain argument I find is that if the aggressor is intoxicated, pain often won't be an issue, or even a distraction for them.

That is true Marnetmar.
Alcohol and drugs can make people impervious to pain.
But a low heel kick also works on another level , as a physical barrier , it can halt the opponents forward momentum.
For a split second the opponent cannot move forward and cannot get into proper punching range because your leg is stopping him from stepping forward.
May just give you an opportunity to move in very close and control the situation.

 

[drop bear]

Look you are pretty much not going to.Just drop a guy with a martial arts kill move.

Not reliably anyway.

 

[Buka]

That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.

I'm curious how you arrive at that opinion. Your profile says you don't currently train. Did you train at one time?

 

[Balrog]

I have to disagree. If any of those bouncers had known how to fight, that guy would have been hauled off in an ambulance.

 

[donnaTKD]

the problem is that as soon as the doorman touches him when he's outside he'll be the one facing charges at the cop shop.

the guy is off the premises --- i still don't understand why the doorstaff are still taking him on --- the doorstaff should've just formed a blockade of the door cos that's where their jurisdiction starts and stops.

forget about the intoxicated a$$hole that's swinging at everything --- he's out on the street --- end of - not a doorstaff problem it's a problem for the cops to sort out.

 

[ZapEm]

I'm curious how you arrive at that opinion. Your profile says you don't currently train. Did you train at one time?

Yes, I did. There are some observations I made from my own experience which, when put together, made my opinion on this fight clip and the OP's remark come naturally to me. Some of these observations are:

1) Fighting (for real) is a very uncertain proposition within which there are many variables involved, including skill among many others.
2) Skill is actually a variable of lesser importance. Power, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, motivation, psychopathy and experience have more to do with actual fighting than skill (which is why a brawl will never resemble a martial arts competition but may involve techniques learned in martial arts).
3) It's easier for the law-abiding and sedentary majority to develop fighting skill (i.e. isolated bio-mechanical skills) than to develop any of those other fighting attributes. It's the other way around for someone with childhood trauma or abusive parents, who find those other attributes easier to develop. This is for many reasons, including the predisposition to spend time, effort and money in a disciplined and orderly environment led by a teacher. This is a habit learned from school and college, and it's a successful habit in most areas of endeavour but less optimal for learning how to fight for real than the brutal environments of prisons, broken homes, bad neighbourhoods, local boxing gyms, etc. It's not useless but it's less useful than those more chaotic, risky and unpleasant learning environments.
4) The OP mentioned black belts. Human beings are social animals, and the black belt represents the end of inferiority within any martial arts school that's imported the Japanese kyu and dan system (i.e. all other colours are inferior to black). Our complex social codes have resulted in a situation where the only martial arts grade that matters is the black belt. Having a black belt in anything confers authority through an apparent expertise. On martial arts forums, for example, nobody is advertising their kyu grade in any martial art. Unfortunately the motivation to get a black belt often clouds the judgment of the martial arts trainee, who may recognise deficiencies in his sensei's martial art but will say nothing because they're "due" for a kyu grade assessment in a couple of weeks and have paid the membership in their association for a year already. I once trained in a martial art that taught spinning away and turning your back on an opponent in a fight. They taught that as a technique from day one. I walked away but could have stayed, have a bit of moderate-intensity exercise and walked away as a "combat expert" for only £15 a week. Walking away and training elsewhere was good for my learning but didn't get me the credibility of having a credential in an obscure martial art that has a lot of forum kudos and which some people seem to think gives you an otherworldly spiritual aura (in case you're interested, it was kalaripayat).
5) The first martial art I trained in (not including judo) was Shotokan karate. I remember the black belts assembled during gradings, and while some of them seemed very good, others were more diverse. Less intensity and competence was required from children (in retrospect what were they doing giving dan grades to under-15s apart from lining their pockets?) and from all women regardless of fitness. A couple of the men were morbidly obese. All this was a long time ago (1990s). I see black belts today in many martial arts and I see many really awful fighters, who don't demonstrate an awareness of the realities of range, balance, power, etc. let alone proficiency. This is, I believe, because the dan grade is the only grade that matters in society, and martial arts that have traditional Japanese-style gradings aren't attracting "fighters" (who are, in my experience, generally really bad misanthropic types no matter what pedestal they're put on by others) but decent people (who are generally the products of successful conditioning, upbringing and education to live happily, healthily and responsibly in a peaceful society). On the other hand, plenty of people with "issues" hit a bag now and then, and some of them may attend a boxing gym or some other "fight club" type of martial art school that involves plenty of full-on contact and regular injuries. Two different worlds. One, unfortunately, turns out really challenging fighters. The other gives lots of respect and credibility (quite rightly so, because at least it proves someone is disciplined and perseveres for 3 years at something) but generally isn't a good return on investment in time and effort compared to more rough-and-ready training systems.
6) A lot of black belts aren't training in martial arts to be better fighters, or even to learn how to fight. They're performing techniques that require bodily control and a bit of mental concentration too. Swordsmanship arts are the best examples, although it exists in all empty hand arts as well. Also, for those people, it might not be just about discipline and learning movements that help externalise an internal conflict in a sort of therapeutic way, but it might also be about maintaining a link to a historic culture they're interested in or have inherited in some manner. I think that's an absolutely valid justification for studying a martial art, by the way. But again, it reduces the pressure on the art itself to be in any way combat-ready. The critical life-and-death environment isn't there. The evil/unjust psychology, cruelty, etc. never comes into it. Clowns on the street picking fights, especially in gangs, have lots of these problems giving them a fighting edge. In fact they never pick fights, only victims. The average black belt who likes the tradition, customs, social networking and other benefits of his martial art isn't a match for these guys. They are, unfortunately, better judges of physique, athleticism and fighting prowess than most martial artists, simply because they look for victims to hurt, without caring if someone is maimed or killed. And they don't train for these animal traits, they're born with them or have them beaten into them at some point.

 

[Buka]

Yes, I did. There are some observations I made from my own experience which, when put together, made my opinion on this fight clip and the OP's remark come naturally to me. Some of these observations are:

1) Fighting (for real) is a very uncertain proposition within which there are many variables involved, including skill among many others.
2) Skill is actually a variable of lesser importance. Power, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, motivation, psychopathy and experience have more to do with actual fighting than skill (which is why a brawl will never resemble a martial arts competition but may involve techniques learned in martial arts).
3) It's easier for the law-abiding and sedentary majority to develop fighting skill (i.e. isolated bio-mechanical skills) than to develop any of those other fighting attributes. It's the other way around for someone with childhood trauma or abusive parents, who find those other attributes easier to develop. This is for many reasons, including the predisposition to spend time, effort and money in a disciplined and orderly environment led by a teacher. This is a habit learned from school and college, and it's a successful habit in most areas of endeavour but less optimal for learning how to fight for real than the brutal environments of prisons, broken homes, bad neighbourhoods, local boxing gyms, etc. It's not useless but it's less useful than those more chaotic, risky and unpleasant learning environments.
4) The OP mentioned black belts. Human beings are social animals, and the black belt represents the end of inferiority within any martial arts school that's imported the Japanese kyu and dan system (i.e. all other colours are inferior to black). Our complex social codes have resulted in a situation where the only martial arts grade that matters is the black belt. Having a black belt in anything confers authority through an apparent expertise. On martial arts forums, for example, nobody is advertising their kyu grade in any martial art. Unfortunately the motivation to get a black belt often clouds the judgment of the martial arts trainee, who may recognise deficiencies in his sensei's martial art but will say nothing because they're "due" for a kyu grade assessment in a couple of weeks and have paid the membership in their association for a year already. I once trained in a martial art that taught spinning away and turning your back on an opponent in a fight. They taught that as a technique from day one. I walked away but could have stayed, have a bit of moderate-intensity exercise and walked away as a "combat expert" for only £15 a week. Walking away and training elsewhere was good for my learning but didn't get me the credibility of having a credential in an obscure martial art that has a lot of forum kudos and which some people seem to think gives you an otherworldly spiritual aura (in case you're interested, it was kalaripayat).
5) The first martial art I trained in (not including judo) was Shotokan karate. I remember the black belts assembled during gradings, and while some of them seemed very good, others were more diverse. Less intensity and competence was required from children (in retrospect what were they doing giving dan grades to under-15s apart from lining their pockets?) and from all women regardless of fitness. A couple of the men were morbidly obese. All this was a long time ago (1990s). I see black belts today in many martial arts and I see many really awful fighters, who don't demonstrate an awareness of the realities of range, balance, power, etc. let alone proficiency. This is, I believe, because the dan grade is the only grade that matters in society, and martial arts that have traditional Japanese-style gradings aren't attracting "fighters" (who are, in my experience, generally really bad misanthropic types no matter what pedestal they're put on by others) but decent people (who are generally the products of successful conditioning, upbringing and education to live happily, healthily and responsibly in a peaceful society). On the other hand, plenty of people with "issues" hit a bag now and then, and some of them may attend a boxing gym or some other "fight club" type of martial art school that involves plenty of full-on contact and regular injuries. Two different worlds. One, unfortunately, turns out really challenging fighters. The other gives lots of respect and credibility (quite rightly so, because at least it proves someone is disciplined and perseveres for 3 years at something) but generally isn't a good return on investment in time and effort compared to more rough-and-ready training systems.
6) A lot of black belts aren't training in martial arts to be better fighters, or even to learn how to fight. They're performing techniques that require bodily control and a bit of mental concentration too. Swordsmanship arts are the best examples, although it exists in all empty hand arts as well. Also, for those people, it might not be just about discipline and learning movements that help externalise an internal conflict in a sort of therapeutic way, but it might also be about maintaining a link to a historic culture they're interested in or have inherited in some manner. I think that's an absolutely valid justification for studying a martial art, by the way. But again, it reduces the pressure on the art itself to be in any way combat-ready. The critical life-and-death environment isn't there. The evil/unjust psychology, cruelty, etc. never comes into it. Clowns on the street picking fights, especially in gangs, have lots of these problems giving them a fighting edge. In fact they never pick fights, only victims. The average black belt who likes the tradition, customs, social networking and other benefits of his martial art isn't a match for these guys. They are, unfortunately, better judges of physique, athleticism and fighting prowess than most martial artists, simply because they look for victims to hurt, without caring if someone is maimed or killed. And they don't train for these animal traits, they're born with them or have them beaten into them at some point.

Wow. That's a well thought out, articulate post. I really like it. And I'd like to discuss it. But first, if I may...
When I read it I smiled because I'm a film freak. It brought to mind a line from one of my favorite films, and as luck may have it, it the line was on youtube!

Please know I am not, in any way, shape or form, implying the right to over rule anything. Or to be disrespectful in any way. I just like movie lines. Hopefully you smiled. I'm hoping someone else did beside me.

Okay, so let me ask you this. Would the guy shown in the original OP beat 90% of the black belts in the Shotokan school you went to, and 90% of the black belt Judokas you trained with?

 

[K-man]

Seeing this thread seems to have second wind I'll put in my two cents worth. In a real fight you can't just say "I'll kick him in the knee" or " I'll kick him in the nuts". It just doesn't work that way. You have to use the opportunities you are given. Now this is a big guy with a long reach, fuelled with alcohol and not feeling pain. I doubt many people even get into the range for an effective kick without being hit first. Most of the bouncers played to his strength by stepping back, away from his swing, allowing him to follow. Only one stepped inside and he didn't have the skill to take the big guy down.

I think the OP is right in that a lot of people would have problems dealing with this guy, and I'm not saying they would be beaten. However this guy did have at least two friends who came into it a couple of times also, so it wasn't just a simple fight. It is the type of brawl to keep well away from.

Let's look at his fighting style. Basically just a big swing of the right arm with a follow up left punch or kick given a target. There was a lot of weight behind that arm so whoever suggested simply blocking it is living in a dream world unless you are as big as him. So to my mind two options. Get inside the swing, tie up his right arm and get stuck in with the knee or evade the swing, move in behind it to take control of his head from the side or behind. From that position you can kick to the back of the knee. Bouncing around coming in and out like the guy on the roadway is never going to work against a brawler who will simply overpower you.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

Most males I know can protect their twig and berries instinctively. No training required, just years of experience. Not to say it can't be done, I just wouldn't rely on it.

I can say personally, I would never target the area as a game plan, but as K-man mention, it's whats opportune when presented.

 

[Sherman]

Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.

 

[terryl965]

Best self defense is not to be in that stituation

 

[drop bear]

Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.

Help from who?

You have just glassed three people. I wouldn't help you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.

And then, after following your advice...

 

[Sherman]

And then, after following your advice...

LOL Yup, the guys who tried to beat you up will go to prison.

Remember that I said, "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified,"
Most of the time, they will be pacified so that's the perfect self defense starting with the right mindset so you will save everyone without having to fight. That's the one thing I like about Aikido and its philosophy - very self defense oriented.

 

[Dirty Dog]

LOL Yup, the guys who tried to beat you up will go to prison.

Remember that I said, "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified,"
Most of the time, they will be pacified so that's the perfect self defense starting with the right mindset so you will save everyone without having to fight. That's the one thing I like about Aikido and its philosophy - very self defense oriented.

Um... no... you sat down, bought drinks and hit him in the face with it. It will be YOU getting the frequent prostate exams after that...

 

[Sherman]

Help from who?

You have just glassed three people. I wouldn't help you.

That's only if they still want to kill you after drinking and you have no other choice. Or maybe you need to protect someone you are with and you can't talk them out of harming the victim. It's all in the acting. Cry and scream for help! 3 big guys against one is valid self defense in court or would you rather prefer to die there? LOL

 

[Sherman]

Um... no... you sat down, bought drinks and hit him in the face with it. It will be YOU getting the frequent prostate exams after that...

Same reply above. For goodness sake, if everything is settled, please don't him them in the face. LOL