"They Hate Us Cuz We're Free"

[PeachMonkey]

I've seen this idea bandied about for some time now, ever since our Glorious Leader first mentioned it in a speech some time back.

"This idea" being, of course, that Muslims, or even some radical subset of them, or all terrorists, "hate us because we are free", and "hate all freedom-loving people".

Can anyone point to actual data that shows this? I've heard many, many people (including some people who I care very much about) state this as a truism.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

You know, I would like to see some sort of evidence. I have yet to hear someone say, "Radical Muslim terrorists hate us because our WOMEN are free" (which would at least tie in with some of the extreme Muslim political stands). From what I understand, the Twin Towers were targeted as symbols of American and global financial symbols - and the Pentagon, as the US military symbol - not symbols of "freedom".

 

[PeachMonkey]

I have yet to hear someone say, "Radical Muslim terrorists hate us because our WOMEN are free"

I've actually heard warbloggers (and even close friends here in town) *claim* this, Mouse... however, seeing radical Muslims mistreat their women is not the same thing as Al Qaeda saying "we attack you because your women do not wear veils", as I'm sure you well know.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

True, true. I actually hadn't heard that one, just the "hate us cuz we're free" line. Hmmm!

 

[Seig]

That statement has an elemental truth to it. America was founded on religious freedom and has grown to mean so much more. The religious freedom grew into the "pursuit of happiness", not the guarantee of happiness. Many choose to believe the pursuit of happiness means capitalism, and to a large extent it does. So we have a country that is religiously free as well as economically free. These two items tend to foster two things, arrogance and laziness. Two things most Americans are to an extent, I do not discount myself in this statement. The radical muslims hate us because we are not muslims and because most of our current religious structure is based on Judaism. So is theirs, but you can't tell them that. People that hate will always find a way to hate others, regardless of who they are. America is a target because we are successful and prosperous.

 

[michaeledward]

That statement has an elemental truth to it. America was founded on religious freedom and has grown to mean so much more. The religious freedom grew into the "pursuit of happiness", not the guarantee of happiness. Many choose to believe the pursuit of happiness means capitalism, and to a large extent it does. So we have a country that is religiously free as well as economically free. These two items tend to foster two things, arrogance and laziness. Two things most Americans are to an extent, I do not discount myself in this statement. The radical muslims hate us because we are not muslims and because most of our current religious structure is based on Judaism. So is theirs, but you can't tell them that. People that hate will always find a way to hate others, regardless of who they are. America is a target because we are successful and prosperous.

Michael, thank you for contributing. I disagree, I do not think there is any truth to the statement. I believe it is used to dehumanize those aligned against us; to negate any discussion about their point of view; to silence internal dissent (Democrats hate America).

As I read your post - I almost drew the conlusion that "They hate us because of our "arrogance and laziness".

a) they hate us because of our freedom
b) we have freedom of religion and a free economy
c) freedom of religion and freedom of economy make us arrogant and lazy
d) they hate us because we are arrogant and lazy

Then you went on to say it was because we are "successful and prosperous".

I think I understand what you meant to say, but what you actually said struck me as clever, ironic, and a bit humorous.

... are we "successful and prosperous" or are we 'arrogant and lazy'?

Any how ... it could also be that "They Hate Us" because the United States government supports political structures in their countries that are oppressive. It could also be that the United States government positioned its military forces in their holy lands, and they object. It could also be that the United States government is not seen as an even-handed negotiator when working to settle the Israeli-Palestinian challenges. It could also be that the United States government does not respect other countries (or the United Nations) when it comes to items not in its own self interest, but forces other countries to do the same (Kyoto - Land Mine bans). etc. etc.

Of course, that doesn't fit on the bumper sticker.

Mike

 

[PeachMonkey]

That statement has an elemental truth to it.

Thanks for contributing.

Michaeledward summed up my opposition to your actual statement better than I ever could; however, for the sake of argument, let's leave that alone for the moment.

I'm interested in *evidence*. Has Al Qaeda ever said (or been demonstrated by scholars or intelligence agencies) they want to kill us because of our *freedoms*? Was the embassy at Beirut attacked because the US Marines there can *choose their religion*? Did Abu Nidal scheme against us because we're *capitalist*?

 

[Mark Weiser]

Human beings within themselves are selfish by nature. They desire power and control and if that is not within easy reach they will take what they want by force.

That is why wars and conflicts start because a single person aka Leaders of Governments or Corporations desire something and will do whatever it takes to obtain that desired object and do not care who or what stands in the way in obtaining that ojbect.

That is why to me the Act of sending Men and Women into harms way and the seemingly lack of emotional response to the families of those persons that have given the most precious gift(life).

It seems almost criminal in nature. That is why I do not understand at times the reaction or actions of a few to kill many aka suicide bombers or even a man behind a desk with a pen or a phone call sends 100's of people to their deaths.

Ahhh Ethics and Morals clause lol should be required course for everyone lol

Mark E. Weiser

 

[Seig]

Success and prosperity lead to arrogance and laziness. America is perceived as a Christian country, whether it is or not. Many radicals feel that the Jews secretly control America, and this board. Half of that statement is undeniably true. I make not attempt to dehumanize terrorists, they do that themselves.

I'd like to respond to a few of Michael's statements

it could also be that "They Hate Us" because the United States government supports political structures in their countries that are oppressive.

To a degree that was/is true. American policy typically has been to support the existing power structure within a country unless it is unfriendly to us. That belief is based upon Manifest Destiny. I do not necessarily agree with it, but think Spanish American War (San Juan Hill) we had no real reason to be there.

It could also be that the United States government positioned its military forces in their holy lands, and they object.

That is kind of vague, could you be more specific? If you are referring to Israel, are you referring to the Holy Land that they took from the jew by force?

It could also be that the United States government is not seen as an even-handed negotiator when working to settle the Israeli-Palestinian challenges.

That is a valid statement, and I agree with you. Where you and I disagree is that I do not feel America need be even handed there. America and England re-established Israel, as such, right or wrong, we have a responsibility to those people. Israel was set up to be just what Abraham Lincoln wanted Liberia to be for the Afro-American people.

It could also be that the United States government does not respect other countries (or the United Nations) when it comes to items not in its own self interest, but forces other countries to do the same (Kyoto - Land Mine bans). etc. etc.

For the record, I do not respect the United Nations either. Who has financed the UN? Other countries or the US? What has the UN really accomplished other than political fighting? I do not believe America always stands on the moral high ground, but show me somewhere the quality of life is superior to here? In the end, all wars/conflicts are about religion and/or money, plain and simple.

 

[michaeledward]

Thank you again, Michael.

Success and prosperity lead to arrogance and laziness. America is perceived as a Christian country, whether it is or not. Many radicals feel that the Jews secretly control America

Why do you feel that 'success and prosperity lead to arrogance and laziness'? I believe you are a small business owner, aren't you? Has the success you have experienced in running a karate studio made you more lazy, or more arrogant? I have always seen that those we succeed continue to be driven to acquire more success, more money, and more goods. I have not seen successful people say, you know, I have achieved enough, I am going to stop achieving now, so the next guy gets a chance.

Are Americans Christian, or are we Jewish? I realize that the two religions share a common history, but they are really quite different. And do you feel that everyone in the world views Americans only through the lens of religion?

Do only the radicals perceive America as being Jewish? (I am reading the definition of 'is' and 'secretly control' as synonyms).





Concerning my statements, and your responses to "United States support for oppressive political structures".

If you were a citizen living in Iraq in 1988, might you not get a little upset that American intelligence was being used to provide Saddam Hussein with targeting locations for his chemical weapons.


I realize that is just one, and an extremely graphic, representation with the problem of supporting the existing power structure. I use it here only as an example as to how US Policy might plant the seeds of dissent. Also, there are a number of examples where we actually worked to put in governments that were more oppressive and less democratic that what existed. See South America during President Reagan's term in office.

​

Concerning US Military Forces in their Holy Lands.

Osama bin Laden has stated that American military forces in Saudi Arabia are the reason he is carrying out attacks on the United States. After we stationed our troops in Saudi Arabia in 1990 to expel Iraq from Kuwait, they were never withdrawn.


It has been argued that one of the reasons we invaded Iraq was to put in a friendly regime that would allow us to station US military forces, as part of a forward deployment, in Iraq. Currently, the DOD is building 14 "Enduring Bases" in Iraq.
US Forces stationed in Saudi Arabia are being drawn down to a minimal complement.



​

America and England re-established Israel, as such, right or wrong, we have a responsibility to those people.

Which people? The Israeli's who had been living througout the world at the time America and England drew the lines on a map? Or the people who were living in between those lines on the map at the time? Are we not obligated to both sets of people?


Drawing further on your next point about the United Nations, are we not signators to the charter of the United Nations? When we ratified the charter of the United Nations, didn't we agree that collective security arrangements are in the interest of everybody. Is it acceptable to disregard our own obligations simply because we are the biggest, baddest kid on the block?

Perhaps success does breed arrogance.

For the record, I do not respect the United Nations either. Who has financed the UN? Other countries or the US? What has the UN really accomplished other than political fighting? I do not believe America always stands on the moral high ground, but show me somewhere the quality of life is superior to here?

So, is your argument that because, during the past 200 years, Americans have been more adept at exploiting the resources of the globe (to build a superior quality of life), that we should just screw the rest of the world?



By signing the United Nations Charter, the United States created legal obligations to itself. Among them:

Article 2, Section 3 "...all members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means."

Article 2, Section 4 "...All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."

​

President Bush violated the laws of the United States by violating these sections of the United Nations Charter. The only justification that can be offered is that the United States is the only remaining super-power.


Might-Makes-Right

And, of course, that means the weak get screwed. Perhaps they build up a bit of resentment. Perhaps they load a skiff full of explosives. Perhaps they drive a truck into a building. Perhaps they hi-jack a few planes. But it may not be our 'Freedom' they hate.

Thanks. Mike

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I do not believe America always stands on the moral high ground, but show me somewhere the quality of life is superior to here?

Sweden. Scandanavia. Better quality of life, shorter workweeks, healthcare for everyone (esp. prenatal care so healthier babies are born), reduction in the disparity of wealth, so there is no one so rich they can essentially control the lives of others, and no one so poor that crime rates are much lower.

America is perceived as a Christian country, whether it is or not. Many radicals feel that the Jews secretly control America, and this board. Half of that statement is undeniably true.

Mmmmeeergh?!? Which half?

 

[someguy]

I doubt that every terorist has the same reason for thier actions. I won't say they hate us cuz we are free. I won't say the don't. I'll just guess there are many reasons... Heck there might even be some that are doing it cuz of peer pressure. I really don't know. If you want to find out for sure how about go ask one. Yeah theres a good idea.
Show up and you got to look like the most idiotic tourist also. Then walk straight into a training camp and ask one. Sounds fun. Whos up for it.

 

[don bohrer]

Islam is only a tool just like the excuses. Radical groups and their leaders use whatever will afford the most control and influence over the people. If the United States or Western Ideas were not being targeted these same nutjobs would go back to fighting and killing each other and their innocent country men. :whip:

Don (El Paso)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The notion that they hate us for our freedom is unfounded. The notion that they hate us for our pro-Israel stance is documented.

Arabs throughout the world buy into the fictions put forth in the "The Protocols of Zion", a document purporting to show that Jews plan on conquering the gentiles via the use of the Fraternal Order of Masons, and eventually rule the world. The book is supposedly a collection of the minutes of a meeting of a group called "The Elders of Zion" in 1897 at the groups first meeting in Berne, Switzerland.

In 1921 Phillip Graves exposed "The Protocols" as a hoax in a first rate series of articles in the London Times, yet people continue to believe they're a genuine document. Conspiracy theorists in the United States hold fast to it being the "real deal", and as mentioned, so do many Arabs. An Egyptian production company aired a 41 episode television show called "Horseman without a Horse" which was based on "The Protocols of Zion."

There is a very real undercurrent of feeling in the Arab world (and among some anti-semitic white supremicists here) that the United States is run by Zionists. Jews, supposedly, run our banks and our government.

You'll recall the rumor that circulated after 9-11 stating that thousands of Jews received phone calls the day of the attack warning them not to go to work at the World Trade Center. The rumor wasn't limited to an American circulation. Mohammed Atta's father believed it very strongly and was convinced his son was a puppet of some CIA plot...he couldn't accept his son piloted one of the planes. It had to be the doing of the Jews.

In addition to this paranoia is the impotent frustration of the typical Arab male who sees his corrupt governments hoarding his nation's treasure while the majority of Arabs languish...and we support the system that allows this by purchasing their oil without hesitation or censure of the despotic governments controlling the tap on the crude.

And Feisty was correct...Sweden, Norway, and Denmark all have an incredibly high standard of living and enjoy great freedom...perhaps greater than our own in many respects. They have not been attacked by terrorists...though they face a great trial in that many Muslims immigrants have moved to Scandanavia to seek that high standard of living...and this has burdened the social system.

These Muslims don't hate freedom. They seek it.


Regards,


Steve

 

[PeachMonkey]

If the United States or Western Ideas were not being targeted these same nutjobs would go back to fighting and killing each other and their innocent country men.

I'm still not convinced that Western ideas are being targeted when Al Qaeda activists fly aircraft into American buildings. There's plenty of evidence that they're targeting American, or even Western, behaviour and policies.

Moreover, what about the "fighting and killing each other"? Were these "nutjobs" involved in eternal internecine warfare before Western powers conquered them and made them Imperial subjects?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Islam is only a tool just like the excuses. Radical groups and their leaders use whatever will afford the most control and influence over the people. If the United States or Western Ideas were not being targeted these same nutjobs would go back to fighting and killing each other and their innocent country men. :whip:

Don (El Paso)

I'm surprised how you can so casually label thousands, if not millions, of people "nutjobs." I'm also curious why you'd think they would go about killing each other were we not their casus belli...because they're "nutjobs?" Surely some other motivation compels them to fight.

The etiology of unbridled violence like this is rooted in ignorance. The ignorance is often accompanied by poverty. People who are well fed, self actualized intellectually, and have healthy and happy children simply don't have the urge to kill for political or religious reasons.

Please name the Arab country where the majority of the people are blessed in this way...for I'm unaware of it. The Arab states have a woeful disparity of wealth among their people. Their governments are corrupt and tyrranical, and the people have little hope outside of what their religion provides them. Seeds of unrest are constantly being sown.


Regards,


Steve

 

[don bohrer]

Steve,

Honestly I can't understand how anyone could encourage their children and youth to die by suicide bombing. I don't have children of my own, but It breaks my heart to see anothers child hurting. It would seem that the radical leadership doesn't believe in their cause as much as they would have others believe or else they too would be carrying out martydom. Instead they use their youth. So I think the term "Nutjob" fits well!

Don (El Paso)

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Honestly I can't understand how anyone could encourage their children and youth to die by suicide bombing.

Well, I may be able to understand it a little bit, although certainly not condone it. Palestinians living in overcrowded camps, with no political power, no hope for future growth... their "heros" are suicide bombers, who become martyrs for their national identity and as a mark of defiance against the people they see oppressing them. They may not see or have many other options.

I don't imagine that *parents* are telling their children to become suicide bombers (although who knows...some parents in our country tell their kids it's OK to kill a doctor who performs abortions...). I imagine that as a disaffected youth is growing up, he or she looks for some way to make an impact on the world and make their voice be heard. Sadly, for some, that seems to be the choice. I don't imagine anyone would choose suicide bombing if they thought (wrongly or rightly) that they had other viable options.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Steve,

Honestly I can't understand how anyone could encourage their children and youth to die by suicide bombing. I don't have children of my own, but It breaks my heart to see anothers child hurting. It would seem that the radical leadership doesn't believe in their cause as much as they would have others believe or else they too would be carrying out martydom. Instead they use their youth. So I think the term "Nutjob" fits well!

Don (El Paso)

Then the kids are "nutjobs" too? Or just innocent teenage pawns?

The Israeli Defense Forces have killed at least 550 Palestinian children in the intifada, far more than ever were used in suicide attacks. The ratio of wounded children to dead is about ten to one. Are the Israelis "nutjobs"? Or are they our allies?

Fanaticism isn't psychosis, Don. Eric Hoffer pointed out that desperate, but not hopeless, people will become "true believers" in a particular cause if they believe there is something to gain.

Arabs are sitting on the world's oil reserves, so they clearly have something to gain if they can wrench it from the despotic magnates that control it. Radical Islam as well offers a "hope" of sorts that soothes their desperation, shame, and impotence.

It is easy to diminish these people as "nutjobs" when we sit in the relative opulence of the West. Doing so, however, gives us no insights as to the source of such intense hatred that men and boys would immolate themselves in order to destroy their enemies. It goes against our logic, and seems insane...but for over twenty years now we've seen these sorts of attacks. Clearly to some it seems to be a viable course of action.

Dismissing it casually teaches us nothing.

Regards,

Steve

 

[don bohrer]

Steve,
You post some fine points, and I general agree with you.

Just the radical leaders that order the suicide bombings. This might be an acceptable way to fight by some, but those that use it have no humanity or love for their fellow man. Israel has it problems, which I think are now driven by hate and some outside pressure. Fanatacism is a hard thing to pin down. I suppose if you don't loose yourself then it's not psychosis. Rich Oil producing lands in the hands of Radical Islam would afford great power, but for what purpose??

Did I mention there is more than one type of Nutjob

Don (El Paso)