There WILL be death panels.

[Twin Fist]

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/16565

The new Medicare incentive from the Obama administration: Cut Costs!

The New York Times tries to cover up the core truth about the New Medicare program that is arising from Obamacare. But there is only so much disinformation you can lay on the hard fact that Medicare providers will MAKE MORE MONEY if they restrict services and costs. Much more than if they expend money attempting to address complex and costly health issues:

For the first time in its history, Medicare will soon track spending on millions of individual beneficiaries, reward hospitals that hold down costs and penalize those whose patients prove most expensive.

 

[Twin Fist]

one of the commentors on that piece summed it up perfectly:


If government is in charge of health care, this is the only possible result. No “reform” of any government backed system can ever avoid this result, because it is inherent in the system itself.

Reason: demand for healthcare is theoretically infinite, since no one ever thinks they are “too healthy”. Actual use of healthcare resources is currently limited by cost and ability to pay. (and yes, part of that ability to pay is covered by the charity of individuals and institutions)

If all costs are covered by some central paying system (ie, any mandatory government backed system) then demand will rise exponentially, as there are no longer any constraints. With no limits, demand will rise until it equals 100% of *all* available resources of the economy – it would pass that if it could, but that’s the point at which all other economic activity ceases and the society in question collapses.

If you do not allow the cost mechanism to cut demand, then you *Must* put some centrally run triage mechanisms in place to cut demand by decree. You have to do that or else the system in question will collapse quickly from the overload.

People are unhappy that there is no third option, but there isn’t. Something has to limit demand – either market price or the government. One is under the control of patients and their families. One is under the control of the bureaucracy.

Our Choice.

 

[Scott T]

Death Panels...

Isn't that what insurance companies are?

After all, they decide every day who lives and who dies by granting or denying coverage.

 

[Twin Fist]

dont be obtuse

 

[Scott T]

dont be obtuse

Well, from my perspective the unmitigated disaster that is the US health system is run by the insurance companies and HMO's who have the 'right' to decide who lives and dies.

So instead of just insulting me while not denying my statement, tell me how I'm wrong.

You can safely assume that I know as little about your health care system as you do about mine.

And if you rely on information from FoxNews, you know **** all about mine.

 

[Touch Of Death]

dont be obtuse

I'm sorry but we are facing Death panels one way or the other. Get used to it.
Sean

 

[Twin Fist]

unmitigated disaster?

you are aware i assume that people come from the world over to get treated here? so maybe your judgement is a little.....fubar'd?

 

[Scott T]

unmitigated disaster?

you are aware i assume that people come from the world over to get treated here? so maybe your judgement is a little.....fubar'd?

What's the average income of these people that fly over for treatment?

 

[Twin Fist]

irrelevant

no wait, it is relevant

the people that can afford the best come to america for treatment.

AMERICANS never go to europe for treatment or canada, just some go to mexico cuz there are no rules down there, the so called doctors there will inject you with shark piss if you ask them too..lol

we have the best technology and the smartest doctors, arguing that is just desperate non-sense.

and BTW- i am poor and i can get treatment at any ER in the country, in fact, i cant be turned away

 

[Ken Morgan]

Actually tonnes of Americans come up here for eye surgery, dentistry and prescriptions. The reason they don’t come up for other stuff is because our doctors aren’t allowed to do private stuff outside of the system. It has nothing to do with quality of training. There is a private clinic in Toronto that specializes in hernias, something like 40% of the patients are non Canadian.

I’d trust Japanese, Canadian, Australian, European or American doctors and equipment equally. The medical training of all of them is recognized by each country almost instantly on completion of study.

 

[Tez3]

Actually tonnes of Americans come up here for eye surgery, dentistry and prescriptions. The reason they don’t come up for other stuff is because our doctors aren’t allowed to do private stuff outside of the system. It has nothing to do with quality of training. There is a private clinic in Toronto that specializes in hernias, something like 40% of the patients are non Canadian.

I’d trust Japanese, Canadian, Australian, European or American doctors and equipment equally. The medical training of all of them is recognized by each country almost instantly on completion of study.

" An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

Brits tend to go to America when they've heard of a treatment not available for whatever reason in Europe, this could be for many reasons, it could be experimental or it could be that it's not recognised as 'medical' ie a therapy conducted by non medically certified staff. People usually sell their houses, cars etc or fund raise for a long time to be able to afford these treatments which seem to be invariably expensive. Sometimes it's worth every penny sometimes not.
Othe reason Brits go abroad is for cosmetic procedures they won't get on the NHS, quite rightly too, no reason we should pay for it.

 

[Scott T]

Actually tonnes of Americans come up here for eye surgery, dentistry and prescriptions. The reason they don’t come up for other stuff is because our doctors aren’t allowed to do private stuff outside of the system. It has nothing to do with quality of training. There is a private clinic in Toronto that specializes in hernias, something like 40% of the patients are non Canadian.

I’d trust Japanese, Canadian, Australian, European or American doctors and equipment equally. The medical training of all of them is recognized by each country almost instantly on completion of study.

Well, there goes Twin Fist's nationalism-based arguement down the crapper.

 

[Carol]

Actually tonnes of Americans come up here for eye surgery, dentistry and prescriptions. The reason they don’t come up for other stuff is because our doctors aren’t allowed to do private stuff outside of the system. It has nothing to do with quality of training. There is a private clinic in Toronto that specializes in hernias, something like 40% of the patients are non Canadian.

Sick Kids in Toronto:

Adults and children genetically at risk for cancer can increase their chance of survival through a new surveillance protocol developed by Sick Kids researchers, a Toronto study has found.


The surveillance, being dubbed the ‘Toronto protocol’, has proven so successful that hospitals around the world are now adopting it, says Dr. David Malkin, principal investigator of the study.

The protocol is already being used in several centres around the world, including the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, the Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, and the Huntsman Cancer Institute in Utah.

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/ill...proves-survival-for-children-with-cancer-risk

 

[Twin Fist]

it isnt nationalism at all young man, it is experience, we see foreigners here constantly, seeking medical attention because it is the best in the world

if that fact gets up in your chaps isnt my problem.

oh, and another thing, if you think it is such an "unmitigated disaster" you can feel free to NOT come here for treatment.

you get whjat you want, and we get one less america bashing tourist

everyone wins.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I know more people who had LASIK in Canada than I do in the US. They are also much more satisfied with the quality of work and care than the ones who went to the US doctors, who had -less- experience. I wish I'd gone to a Canadian surgeon instead of the US quack I went to.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Death Panels...

Isn't that what insurance companies are?

After all, they decide every day who lives and who dies by granting or denying coverage.

buy better health insurance and read what it covers and doesnt cover ahead of time.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Well, from my perspective the unmitigated disaster that is the US health system is run by the insurance companies and HMO's who have the 'right' to decide who lives and dies.

So instead of just insulting me while not denying my statement, tell me how I'm wrong.

You can safely assume that I know as little about your health care system as you do about mine.

And if you rely on information from FoxNews, you know **** all about mine.

you are right you don't know anything. You are confusing unlimited health insurance with basic health care.
the vast majority of people have cheap policies that cover little more then basic health care.
I pay alot more then most people, we have multiple coverages. I know what my coverage includes and does not include. with a 3 and a 5 year old I can not afford not to know how my health insurance works.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

" An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

Brits tend to go to America when they've heard of a treatment not available for whatever reason in Europe, this could be for many reasons, it could be experimental or it could be that it's not recognised as 'medical' ie a therapy conducted by non medically certified staff. People usually sell their houses, cars etc or fund raise for a long time to be able to afford these treatments which seem to be invariably expensive. Sometimes it's worth every penny sometimes not.
Othe reason Brits go abroad is for cosmetic procedures they won't get on the NHS, quite rightly too, no reason we should pay for it.

I was going to say I have heard of americans going elsewhere for treatment and I can not remember hearing of any of those times that was not based on a treatment that was not approved here in America, I would imagine that treatments not approved in certain countries is the largest reason people travel for treatment, with the next biggest reason being cost, and the third biggest reason being quality.... but that is just a wild guess on my part

 

[WC_lun]

More nonsense stated without research. America's health care system is not the best in the world by a long shot. In fact Canada and Great Britain's health care systems are rated better. The best rated in the world? Hey that would be France's...I know, that is almost sacreligious considering they have a socialist system. At least do a little research from sources that aren't quite so biased as Fox and Brietbart's site. We spend 17% of our gross national product on healthcare which is 6% more than anyone else in the world. and we are like 19th in positive patient outcomes. More bancrupcies are caused by medical bills than any other reason. Hospitals can and do defer life saving treatment according to a patiences ability to pay. Do not confuse this with emergency room service. We are the ONLY industrialized nation not to have some form of national health care for all of its' citizens...I guess the rest of the world must be commie leftist, who don't know the capitalist value of human life. America already has a socialist form of health care insurance...it is called Medicare...oh and the VA. Though I will admitt te VA has not been an example of shining success. It is good enough for our eterans though. Insurance companies constantly raise rates to unreasonable heights or drop customers when they become ill...which is kind of the point of getting insurance in the first place. I got no problem with thinking there are issues with the current reform. However, death panels isn't one of them. Selling out to the insurance companies to keep te status quo is a problem.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I know more people who had LASIK in Canada than I do in the US. They are also much more satisfied with the quality of work and care than the ones who went to the US doctors, who had -less- experience. I wish I'd gone to a Canadian surgeon instead of the US quack I went to.

i often wonder about this.. my wife worked in a laser eye surgery center long ago adn I got my eyes done for free.. best decision I ever made in my life, now almost 12 years later I could not be happier with the decision, but I remember thinking at the time how simple the procedure was, assistants did all the work except for the cutting and it only took about a few days to train the assistants how to use the machines that did vision checks, mapping, and prep, then the doctor came in and did the actual laser work. I do not know how tricky that laser work actually is.. i never bothered asking if the machine went of the mappign to automatically do the laser work of if the doctor actually had his own hands and abilities to do it more then anything else..