There is no magic pistol round for stopping an assailant

[PhotonGuy]

Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.

I'll use my Magic Chi Powers to slow time, harden my skin to the consistency of iron and warp space so the punch misses. All at the same time.

I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you...

 

[Instructor]

I'll use my Magic Chi Powers to slow time, harden my skin to the consistency of iron and warp space so the punch misses. All at the same time.

I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you...

You do that too?

 

[elder999]

Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.

I posted in another thread about close-combat pistol shooting.

Most police departments don't train patrol officers for it.

It's as easy to put a bullet up someone's nose from 5 feet away-or closer-as squeezing the trigger, really.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

One of the great things about America is that you can think whatever foolishness you like.
A .357 may or may not have more "stopping power" than a 9mm fired from the same range and (since accuracy is more important than caliber) hitting exactly the same target. Your statement is categorically incorrect, however, because you have not addressed the variables of (among others) barrel length, bullet weight, muzzle velocity and expansion characteristics of the round. You've also ignored the 6 or 7 round capacity of the .357 compared to the 15+ round capacity of the 9mm.



Hornady makes good ammo. Whether or not it is the best choice for a particular person firing a particular weapon is quite debatable. I like the Hornady Critical Defense loads for my wives Bersa Thunder380. I hate them in my Ruger P95 and S&W Model 66. After actually testing ammo, I carry Hydroshocks in the .357. The 9mm is loaded with Glaser Silvers, with the spare magazines holding Black Talons and Hydroshocks.



No. It's not.



At 5 feet I can ask you which nostril you'd like the bullet to go through, so the caliber is pretty much a moot point.

View attachment 18904

This was shot today. Ruger P95. 115gr FMJ. 6 yards. Single fire. 15 rounds.
Now, here's a test for you. Is a 15 round grouping such as that a good thing for personal defense shooting? Why or why not?

Nice grouping sir!

To answer your question, it depends...

If you mean pumping 15 rounds into the same part of the bad guy's body then no. It's either as elder said a waste of most of the bullets shooting at a corpse, or you've shot him in the arm or somewhere non-lethal 15 times and not necessarily stopped him, when a quick change of target to the head or heart would have saved you 12 or 13 bullets.

If however it's a sign that you can hit whatever your aiming at 15 times in a row then yes!

Just mho from a Brit who only owns an air pistol.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nice grouping sir!

To answer your question, it depends...

If you mean pumping 15 rounds into the same part of the bad guy's body then no. It's either as elder said a waste of most of the bullets shooting at a corpse, or you've shot him in the arm or somewhere non-lethal 15 times and not necessarily stopped him, when a quick change of target to the head or heart would have saved you 12 or 13 bullets.

If however it's a sign that you can hit whatever your aiming at 15 times in a row then yes!

Just mho from a Brit who only owns an air pistol.

I was hoping PhotonGuy would answer, but he dodged the question. Color me unshocked.

Actually, from the standpoint of damage done to the bad guy, a grouping like mine is NEVER a good thing. Gun shots cause injury by tunneling and by cavitation. The ideal grouping is one large enough that the cavitation injuries don't overlap, or not by much. How large that grouping needs to be varies widely.
The only time a grouping like mine would possibly be good wold be if you were firing a small caliber, FMJ round (which would mean the absolute smallest possible cavitatioin injury) being fired into a vital organ.
With that gun (a Ruger P95 9mm) I'd likely aim to put one round into each side of the upper chest, 3-4" apart, and a third round between the eyes.

 

[elder999]

Actually, from the standpoint of damage done to the bad guy, a grouping like mine is NEVER a good thing. Gun shots cause injury by tunneling and by cavitation. The ideal grouping is one large enough that the cavitation injuries don't overlap, or not by much. How large that grouping needs to be varies widely.
The only time a grouping like mine would possibly be good wold be if you were firing a small caliber, FMJ round (which would mean the absolute smallest possible cavitatioin injury) being fired into a vital organ.
With that gun (a Ruger P95 9mm) I'd likely aim to put one round into each side of the upper chest, 3-4" apart, and a third round between the eyes.

Spoken like a medical person. Color me shocked! :lfao:

Seriously, "double-taps" are about where it's at, and by that I mean Jeff Cooper's "hammer": sight picture-squeeze-squeeze.
Oh-oh, here come's the arguments! (rubs hands)

You'll do, though, Mark-you'll do.:lol:

 

[elder999]

Spoken like a medical person. Color me shocked! :lfao:

Put another way, that pattern isn't too dissimilar to a single shot from 12ga shotgun loaded with buckshot at the same range.

That'll cavitate and ventilate 'em properly. :lfao:

Oh-oh, here come the arguments: I am in no way equating 00 buckshot with 9mm ammo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Double taps are still aimed...

 

[PhotonGuy]

That 15 round grouping is great for competitive target shooting but for personal defense its a waste. The fact that the shots are so close together in the center of the body means that you want to speed up and get the shots off faster and perhaps make the hits a little bit wider. In the heat of a confrontation your shots will be twice as wide and the grouping is so close that you could probably do fine with them four times as wide so to shoot faster and sacrifice some accuracy so your shots are twice as wide under practice conditions would be a good idea. Accuracy isn't everything, speed is important too and speed and accuracy are directionally proportional when your speed goes up your accuracy goes down. And you don't want to put all fifteen shots into the thoracic cavity, the section of the body that consists of the chest and includes the heart and lungs. You want to take two shots to the thoracic cavity and if that doesn't stop the bad guy you take one shot to the ocular cavity, a head shot which falls within the area starting right at the eyes and which goes down to right above the mouth.

At least that is what I've been taught in class.

 

[punisher73]

As others have said, shot placement and rounds on target are more important.

I was at the range one time doing drills and could tell from the sound of the shot that the guy a couple lanes down was using a .45, being nosey I looked over at his lane and his target was far enough back to see where he was hitting. The founds were ALL OVER THE PLACE, including the white space of the target (misses on a body). I got even nosier and stepped back out of my lane to watch him and the guy was just flinching horribly before every shot. He was scared of his gun. It doesn't matter how good the ammo was or how decked out that .45 might have been. It was worthless in his hands.

The only advice I EVER give somebody when buying a gun is to try out various brands (main reliable ones only, no cheapo unknown kinds) and calibers and find what feels the best in their hand and the one they can hit the target the best. There is no one BEST gun or caliber. I always use the analogy that guns are like women's shoes. You have a different gun for each occasion.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If he was flinching than he was an experienced shooter or at least he wasn't experienced with the gun he was using. One of the best ways to deal with a flinching problem is by doing dry practice (practicing with an unloaded gun). That way you don't have an explosion going off two feet from your face and you can get used to using the gun without flinching and you can develop other good habits too.