The strongest hand tech in TKD

[Manny]

We had discussed here about the strongest kick in TKD (for me is the jumping/spining back kick) but we have not discused the strongest hand tech. In my humble opinion one of the strongest hand techs is the han sonal mok chigui aka karate chop.

It's my understanding the hand has so many small bones prone to break upon hard surfases impact however the karate chop can deliver such blow that even can break collar bones and when delivered to the jaw even can disolocate it easily.

I remeber one fight of bass ruthen (frorgive me spelling) ina ring with a japanese, the fighters were not wearing gloves it was bare hands and Bass hit the other guy with a karate chop near the ear it was a instataneus knock out.

What's your favority hand tech and why?

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

It's hard to say that I have a favorite...

I like the knife hand because of its speed and ability to fit into small areas. It's particularly suited for attacking certain weaknesses in the arms, and it is all over the place in karate kata and tae kwon do hyung indicating the form creators themselves had a high opinion of this strike/block.

I also like the reverse punch or boxing cross punch. I've conditioned my knuckles over the years and I've punched makiwara regularly precisely because I wanted to develop these punches.

As I get better at my craft, I've also learned to appreciate the 'weird' stuff too like crane blocks and phoenix fists. They exist in the lexicon because if we want to do specialized things, we need specialized tools.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I like the throat strike (as seen in koryo form) and knife hand. I also like the the double spread block into double upper cut from palgwe 8 when done fast.

 

[Cirdan]

The hammer fist, powerful and tend to suprise opponents. Good for attacking the groin.
Single knuckle strikes (Ipponken) can really do some damage, works well against joints.
Knife hand, striking with the arm bone instead.
And of course, strikes with the elbow.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If by strongest we are discussing an objective standard, and we limit it to the hand, then it would be the reverse punch.

If we include other parts of the arm, the elbow is stronger. (Used like a football players forearm block but concentrating the force over a smaller area) or the downward elbow, or downward forearm.

Favorite is dependant on the situation. Whatever gets the job dne most efficiently.

 

[miguksaram]

The pimp hand...and I keep it strong.:mst:

 

[StudentCarl]

I humbly submit the palm heel strike.

I doesn't use hand bones like the punch, yet relies on the same mechanics as the punch. It's power is evident in how frequently it's used for power breaks.

Carl

 

[Gemini]

There are others listed here that are very strong and can generate knockout power, but I still go with the straight punch.

 

[clfsean]

Look at it a little differently for a second...

It's not the "hand" that does the work. The hand is at the end of the arm which is just conducting the energy generated by power body mechanics when the waist is used to generate the power of the strike.

If you're striking with your arm only or your arm/upper back... you've left about 60% (don't quote me... I'm no physicists or mechanical engineer... math is a language best spoken by others than me) of the possible energy you "could" generate, out of the strike.

The hand... when well conditioned & trained... can deliver the energy developed by the body to finish the strike. There are obvious limitations & exceptions & I'm not talking about those. Your basic flat fist punch is going to be the "A" choice for delivering the energy of the strike. A palm strike is a good back up followed by the elbow then the forearm. However please keep in mind this... when well conditioned & trained ... is optimum if not necessary & required

The arm shouldn't have any active role in the delivery of the strike except to put striking object on target. Of course, mechanically, the arm is being used as part of the strike, but not the strike itself. The elbow will have to maintain a slight bend to prevent the possibility of injury on contact with something that doesn't want to be struck, and I am not talking about inanimate materials like wood, brick, ice, etc... If a body doesn't want to be struck, the chance of you damaging yourself against it is a lot greater than trying to break something that's sitting still and not changing by the heartbeat against your physical motion. The entire arms should be kept relaxed & free of tension until the absolute moment of contact then tightened to brace against the impact & then relaxed immediately following impact. Regardless of what the movies say or show... a tensed arm is a useless arm in delivering a punch.

The shoulder & back provide a degree of additional power generation much greater than the arm, yet less that the whole body in use. The shoulder should maintain a flexible, but not sloppy loose, structure. It should be completely relaxed during the motion of delivering the strike. If it's tensed, power is reduced along with speed since your body is literally fighting itself in the motion.

The waist is the key to the strike. It generates the power from a strong root (stance) pulling energy (figuratively, not literally) from the ground as it twists & then unleashes the energy of the twist. The energy is transmitted up your back & is looking for the path of least resistance to exit. Give it a nice structurally sound but relaxed arm with a well trained & developed weapon at the end & any strike can be your most powerful.

Mind you... this is personal experience & coming from a CMA stylist for the past XX years with a TKD beginning. Hope it helps & doesn't hinder!

 

[Earl Weiss]

I humbly submit the palm heel strike.

I doesn't use hand bones like the punch, yet relies on the same mechanics as the punch. It's power is evident in how frequently it's used for power breaks.

Carl

It's typicaly used in place of the punch for those who don't trai their hands and are afraid of injuring them.

The USTF views this and the side fist as candya$$ breaks and does not allow them as testing breaks.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Look at it a little differently for a second...

It's not the "hand" that does the work. The hand is at the end of the arm which is just conducting the energy generated by power body mechanics when the waist is used to generate the power of the strike.

If you're striking with your arm only or your arm/upper back... you've left about 60% (don't quote me... I'm no physicists or mechanical engineer... math is a language best spoken by others than me) of the possible energy you "could" generate, out of the strike.

The hand... when well conditioned & trained... can deliver the energy developed by the body to finish the strike. There are obvious limitations & exceptions & I'm not talking about those. Your basic flat fist punch is going to be the "A" choice for delivering the energy of the strike. A palm strike is a good back up followed by the elbow then the forearm. However please keep in mind this... when well conditioned & trained ... is optimum if not necessary & required

...............................
The shoulder & back provide a degree of additional power generation much greater than the arm, yet less that the whole body in use. The shoulder should maintain a flexible, but not sloppy loose, structure. It should be completely relaxed during the motion of delivering the strike. If it's tensed, power is reduced along with speed since your body is literally fighting itself in the motion.

The waist is the key to the strike. It generates the power from a strong root (stance) pulling energy (figuratively, not literally) from the ground as it twists & then unleashes the energy of the twist. The energy is transmitted up your back & is looking for the path of least resistance to exit. Give it a nice structurally sound but relaxed arm with a well trained & developed weapon at the end & any strike can be your most powerful.

Mind you... this is personal experience & coming from a CMA stylist for the past XX years with a TKD beginning. Hope it helps & doesn't hinder!

FWIW I think this ignores an importan element of the way in which the human body generates power in Hand techniques.

It is a fundamental precept in everything from Boxing to Bruce Lee's one and 2 inch punch that the legs are employed to Generate power in hand techniques. This is done thru flexing the legs by bending and straightening the knees as well as raising and lowering the heel(s). The biomechanical principle is refereed to as "Closed Chain" or Kinetic linking.
Notice how a good boxer flexes the legs as they punch. This flexing results in a noticeable up and down motion of the head not found in many arts which stress keeping the head level. I submit that Boxers have no stylistic constraints and could either flex or not flex their knees depending on what generates the most power efficiently.

 

[clfsean]

FWIW I think this ignores an importan element of the way in which the human body generates power in Hand techniques.

It is a fundamental precept in everything from Boxing to Bruce Lee's one and 2 inch punch that the legs are employed to Generate power in hand techniques. This is done thru flexing the legs by bending and straightening the knees as well as raising and lowering the heel(s). The biomechanical principle is refereed to as "Closed Chain" or Kinetic linking.
Notice how a good boxer flexes the legs as they punch. This flexing results in a noticeable up and down motion of the head not found in many arts which stress keeping the head level. I submit that Boxers have no stylistic constraints and could either flex or not flex their knees depending on what generates the most power efficiently.

Maybe I said it too CMA-ish & without being in person to demo while talking...

This paragraph here...

The waist is the key to the strike. It generates the power from a strong root (stance) pulling energy (figuratively, not literally) from the ground as it twists & then unleashes the energy of the twist. <snipped>

talks about exactly that topic Earl. Good points!!

 

[bluewaveschool]

I think Earl, as an ITF guy, so pointing to the lack of 'knee spring' in the description of how to generate power.

I prefer the ridge hand myself.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I humbly submit the palm heel strike.

I doesn't use hand bones like the punch, yet relies on the same mechanics as the punch. It's power is evident in how frequently it's used for power breaks.

Carl

Wholeheartedly agree. I was going to post exactly this, actually. I'd also suggest the backfist; lots of power there.

 

[Twin Fist]

I humbly submit the palm heel strike.

I doesn't use hand bones like the punch, yet relies on the same mechanics as the punch. It's power is evident in how frequently it's used for power breaks.

Carl

QFT

nothing else comes close

 

[Twin Fist]

anyone who thinks of the palm as "candy ***" is...........not well informed, though maybe very well indoctrinated

 

[StudentCarl]

It's typicaly used in place of the punch for those who don't trai their hands and are afraid of injuring them.

The USTF views this and the side fist as candya$$ breaks and does not allow them as testing breaks.

With respect sir, the OP didn't specify a static breaking situation where you set up the target exactly as you want it. Without a correct striking angle or on a curved target (like skull) where you don't hit it just right because the target is moving too, a broken hand is a needless problem in a fight, and potentially a big one. I believe that it's wisdom to be cautious about risking injury, not fear.

When I evaluate 'strongest hand technique', I'm looking first for practical use. I think it's wise to train the hand for the punch, but if I had to choose one or the other, palm heel gives all the benefits without needless risks.

Carl

 

[ETinCYQX]

Also, even someone with a trained punch probably delivers more power with a palm heel strike than a fist. I honestly don't care what the USTF thinks is "candyass". It's not a fall back for those who can't punch, it's a more reliable alternative.

 

[Thesemindz]

Strongest is too general a term. Do we mean most effective? Heaviest? Hardest hitting? Biggest striking surface? Smallest? There's no way to answer this question in an objective way. But for what it's worth, I like Two Headed Dragon Clutches Pearl.

In kenpo we practice at least ten impact strikes with the closed fist alone. That doesn't include blocking, breaking, or gripping techniques. Plus another half dozen fist variations (knuckle strikes, half and thumbless fist), and well over a dozen open hand strikes (handswords, palms, claws, and finger strikes). All of which can be delivered from a number of different angles (forward, reverse, inward, outward, inverted), with a number of different methods (whipping, slicing, snapping, thrusting, hooking).

Even before you start moving up the arm with wrist strikes and forearm strikes and a over a dozen different elbow strikes you have pinching and striking grabs and fishhooking and every kind of grappling maneuver.

And then there's bicep strikes and shoulder strikes and traps and hugs and holds. And each with both hands and two hand techniques and lifting and pushing and pulling.

And there are dragdowns and throws and hand assist sweeps. And holding and bracing and tackles and reaps.

And all your techniques are dependent upon targets. A hook to the eye is different from a hook to the mouth or to the subclavian notch. They're also dependent upon intention. There's punching to break, or to push, move, blind, or lock.

Of course force equals mass times acceleration. So heavy is good, but mathematically faster is better. A hammerfist can maim, but so can a ridgehand. I heard a story once about Master Parker knocking out someone at a sparring tournament with a single backknuckle strike.

Every offensive technique is a defensive technique and vice versa, so don't forget your parries and pull down checks, slaps, cranes, and presses.

No hand technique can ever be executed without proper stances and transitions however. You can't separate the arms from the body as a whole and still be effective. Even when you're grappling or on your knees body alignment is key. Always strike with the whole body.

But practice striking with only your isolated limbs just in case.

And don't underestimate the value of your hands in kicking either. Your hands can provide balance by grabbing an opponent or by swinging to counter your shifting body weight. You can even grab the opponent to pull him into a kick. Bringing the target to the weapon is one of the ten ways to add power.

Lastly, there's a whole shadow side of hand work that you can't overlook in your studies. Sometimes the most effective technique is the one that never lands. Feints, fakes. Misdirection. Your hands can create mind clutter when striking or set up grappling techniques by making your opponent defend one direction then suddenly changing technique to use his force against him.

The question is hard to answer with punch or palm strike. Even if it were that simple, no two warriors have the same proficiency with any two techniques. Besides that, each technique is unique based on how it's used in combination. A step thru vertical punch after a kick is a different technique from a lead hand vertical jab.

There is simply no objective standard by which to answer this question. Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, and Gene Lebell were all great fighters, and all used hand techniques. But they didn't have a consensus on the strongest hand technique. And saying that this technique is better than that for breaking doesn't even begin to address the issue.

The purpose of the Way is to master the art of combat. That means destroying your opponent. It involves a lot more than punch and kick, like learning about human anatomy and how to destroy it. And, at least generally, how to use weapons to do so as well.

A preference for one technique over another is just a stylistic bias. It should never be used as a measure of supreme efficacy. Some learn throws, some kicks, some punches. What matters is learning how to use the body as a weapon. Philosophies, strategies, tactics, these are just finite codifications of the Way.

The body. The mind. The spirit. Those are the weapons. When you can make the three into one, then you are the weapon.

Strongest hand technique?

There is no hand technique.


-Rob

 

[Earl Weiss]

anyone who thinks of the palm as "candy ***" is...........not well informed, though maybe very well indoctrinated

It's candy *** because, while it can deliver a lot of force it is used for those who don't train / toughen their hands.

From the standpoint of physics the destructive power is a lot different. Yep, thats me indoctrinated in physics. I believe that by concentrating power thru the strike which has basicaly the same mechanics for palm as punch soley thru a smaller surface are of the two big knuckles, you have a more efficient weapon.

It is the same idea that an Elephant walking exerts less pressure on the ground while walking than a woman in Stilleto heels during certain points of their stride.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_exert..._ground_an_elephant_or_a_woman_in_spike_heels


Or perhaps you feel principles of physics is just a cult. Silly me.