"The right to say No" or the choice to be selective?

Discussion in 'The Study' started by Ceicei, Nov 25, 2008.

  1. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

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    Well, I found an opinion piece in one of Utah's newspapers. He was discussing the right to say "No" or rather, the opportunity to be selective. He brought up some interesting points.

    I had planned on putting this in the "What is Marriage" thread (there were a few paragraphs regarding marriage), but since the article discusses a broader base, this deserves its own thread.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705265699,00.html?pg=1

    What do you think?

    - Ceicei
     
  2. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    I think it's sad and pretty frightening that the law can allow the state to force people to violate their own ethical principles when the outcome of those moral convictions is simply "I don't want to do something"

    I did notice that in all three cases mentioned as examples, the party that sued was not without other options to accomplish their needs
     
  3. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I'm pro gay-marriage, but I have reservations about these kinds of rulings. Should we force private businesses to conform to societal pressures?

    On the other hand, would segregation have ever ended if the US wouldn't have outlawed it?
     
  4. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    I disagree with the "popular vote will force it" idea.
    If 99% of people thought 2+2=6, they'd still be wrong. This is of course why the FF didn't build a democracy.

    Doctors have been sued repeatedly over denying legitimate legal treatments based on their beliefs. Their job is to treat patients, not preach morality.

    Some of the examples given in that article are plain bunk. Its not profitable for me to offer on-site service to Canada, or California, so I won't. Government can't touch mainstream religions and force them to do things. Not legally.

    Others, yeah.

    I'd like to see Ebony profile more non-blacks.

    You can have womans only health clubs, but not mens only.
    You can have exclusionary clubs/celebrations for every racial variant, except white. Suggest it, and you get called a racist.

    As a businessman, I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at anytime. That is however balanced by various laws that apply to the industries I participate in.

    I don't do wedding photography. My event photography is limited to martial arts events as that is what I'm familiar with. If I were to do weddings, I'd probably only do small informal outdoor ones, as I'm not equiped to do large functions, indoors, in poor lighting, which is often the case.
     
  5. girlbug2

    girlbug2 Master of Arts

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    I think any business can reserve the right to refuse services for any reason. We may not always agree with those reasons, but that's the prerogative of businesses in a free country.

    I think segregation is a different matter. The government is not a business. The state has no right to keep people separated according to race, which is in effect what happened to kids in public schools.
     
  6. zeeberex

    zeeberex Green Belt

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    Details of each example aside, our culture has frankly grown too "entitled". Everyone has the right to say no, and it's frankly too damn bad for the other party if thats not "okay". Thats what the waaaaaaahmbulance is for.
     
  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    So if a gay man asked me out on a date and I said no, would tht be discrimination? In my opinion no. But now I wonder if they could sue.

    If a Lesbian Couple asked for a genetic sample from me, and I say no, have I dsicriminated against them? I have actually had the honor of being asked twice, but told them no as I would want to be involved with any childs life I helped create, and I knew they wanted 100% no involvement.

    If a woman asks me out and I do not like her hair length then have I discriminated agianst her? Can I be sued?


    If I choose to walk into a store and buy a blue shirt, can the store own brinf a case against me for not buying a red one? This goes for any product.


    The answer is that we discriminate in every choice we make. We look at color or size or fit or the personality of the person and make a choice. I mean why would I but a small girls cut, pink, half shirt. It would not fit me. But could I be discriminating against this style fo shirt? Yes I am.

    Do I prefer solids and or simple patterns on shirts? Yes.

    Do I like a certain type of female personality? Yes.

    Do I prefer Brunettes over Blondes and or red Heads? Yes.


    While I support equal rights, and I do not support discrimination based upon sex, or one's skin, or religion for a job. But I should have the right to choose the sex of the person I get married. Even though for me there is no choice involved, I know I like women. I understand that other males like males. Should I have the right to look at and consider a persons religion before marriage? Yes

    I see the points trying to be made in the cases in the article, but I also see where this could lead down a path that no one really wants.
     
  8. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    I broke apart quite a bit of the article to respond to and at this point I'm not going to care if I'm stepping on toes here because it's getting down right goddamned ridiculous now. Might as well put on our combination swatzika/hammer/sickle/red star armbands and hats if we're going to be FORCED to accomidate everyone even if we don't want to.
    My answer to alot of these cases and questions are going to be pretty much the same... and I hope they align with common sense...
    Understand something ... when I'm using the phrase "Spoiled Brats!" I mean that they are just being picky about WHO they want... grow up and get over it ... if you can't get them for WHATEVER reason then find someone else and make referrals for that person who WILL accommodate you. Give them all your business! Sheesh!

    How many other photographers (including GAY photographers) are out there looking for a job to do... if one doesn't want to do it then find someone else!! They can't be the ONLY qualified photographer in their area!
    Spoiled brats!

    How many other dating sites are there that DO accommodate gay/lesbian clientele?? Hmm, off the top of my head there's... True, Adult Friend Finder, Fitness Singles, Singles Net, Yahoo, Perfect Match, (now going to google and finding more... Amateur Match, Fling, and probably a few dozen more. But Noooo, he wants THIS one! Spoiled brat!
    It's like going into a chinese restaurant and ordering fettucini alfredo... they'd better make it or else!!

    Doctors ARE obligated to treat people... if it's life threatening. How many other doctors are out there (including again GAY and LESBIAN doctors) who would be happy to do it if another won't??
    Spoiled brats!

    Sure change the name to Ebony and Ivory and have it play the tune ala greeting card every time you open the cover

    Will polygamists actually try and use this site when they're in hiding??

    I always thought a business has a right to refuse service to anyone. Or has that been changed??

    If I know Mormons well enough, they won't do it even though it's the law.

    Spoiled brats! Go to Japan... saw an video of a lady who is making Men's Bra's. Go talk to her and I'm sure she'll whip up something for you.

    This is going to be a very big sticky indeed.

    There are already counselors who willingly accept same sex clients... just a little research will find one... spoiled brats!

    Sure and force the chefs to convert to judaism so that their hands will likewise meet the kosher criteria

    Damned right!

    Well, I'm off to practice my goosesteps!
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
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  9. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you make one customer happy, they might not tell anyone. If you piss off a customer, they will tell everyone they know. Gee, no gay and lesbian business for them. That is how the free market is supposed to work, people can do business with those they choose to, or not.
     
  10. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah well it seems that right to choose is being taken away.

    Other thoughts ... my right to feel think how I want to is being eroded away by others clamoring for their rights to interact with me.
    I do not have a problem with a person wanting to sleep with another of the same sex... that's their business and not my own ... but in a manner of speaking they're telling me what I HAVE to do. Simply on the basis of their status quo.
    If I'm for example a professional photographer (which I used to do btw) and someone asked me to shoot something for them... if I don't want to do it for whatever reasons that I design to choose, then they go find someone else. Why does it HAVE to be me to do it?

    To me it's abusing their minority status, much in the same way that blacks used to do and some handicap people do... if someone says "no" to them... it's discrimination! Not fair! I demand my rights!!

    Get over it alright!

    Oh, and word of mouth is STILL by far THE best advertising. If someone really likes what you've done for them, then they are very likely going to pass it along to their friends/family, coworkers, associates, etc. It's a given. Even if they don't.. chances are the next 9 customers will.
     
  11. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Running a public business (which is what these examples are) puts you under obligations of law. No matter what your personal beliefs are, you are responsible for paying your business taxes, following local ordinances on zoning and how you sell, following laws based on obligations to your employees such as the minimum wage or family leave, and finally you are not allowed to discriminate against your customers or employees in the delineated protected categories. If these businesses are going to be public businesses, then they need to follow the law. Personal beliefs or personal choice really isn't an issue, no more than your personal beliefs about taxes matter to the IRS.
     
  12. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    So how does that apply to private businesses? As a photographer I hired on as a contractor... would that have to apply to me? The law says I have to take pictures of whatever Mr. Doe wants me to?
     
  13. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    This is the reason why you put that big sign on your front door, behind you on your office wall, in your restroom and anywhere else that says "We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE".

    It's not the first time I've seen a sign like that, and there's now no way that they can say they weren't advised of this going in.
     
  14. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    I'm not up on the legal niceties, but from my understanding basically all businesses as we think of them are public businesses. I know if you serve or advertise to the public, then you are considered one. I'm fairly certain this applies to contractors of nearly any stripe.

    As for taking pictures for Mr. Doe, the law does not say you have to do everything he says or take pictures of what he wants. However, you are not allowed to refuse service to Mr. Doe based on one of the protected categories, which generally includes sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, and a handful of other categories. You would theoretically be perfectly in your rights to refuse service to Mr. Doe because you just don't feel like working that day or because Mr. Doe annoys you, but not because Mr. Doe is gay or Catholic.
     
  15. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    That won't do you a lick of good if you make clear that you are refusing service because your customer belongs to one of the protected categories. If you are a bigot, just keep your mouth shut when you refuse service, then no one can prove anything.
     
  16. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    Not doing as you suggest would be a dumb move for anyone, bigot or no.

    But "Protected categories" are nothing to do with it from my standpoint, it's simply a CYA so as not to be caught in ANY situation unfavorable to your business, of this nature or otherwise.
     
  17. Gordon Nore

    Gordon Nore Senior Master

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    I certainly understand the outcomes of the three civil cases -- in particular, the third case involving the fertility doctors. I don't know how they could decline a service to anyone, unless the treatment is medically unwise. That they argued it was because the woman was single is uniquely irrelevant to her wanting to be fertile.

    We had an instance here in Ontario, in which several hospitals were amalgamated -- one facility was given over to a Catholic hospital (supported through provincial health system), which immediately canceled scheduled vasectomies. That turned around pretty quick.

    Similarly, under our human rights legislation Churches and faith-based organizations can discriminate. For instance, an agency like The Salvation Army can refuse to take on gay volunteers. Separation of Church and State. Thus no preacher can be compelled by the legislature to marry a same-sex couple.

    The issue appears to be not what you serve but whom you serve. In these cases, the courts have decided that a service cannot be withheld from persons based on the religious beliefs of the service providers.

    I found this on e-Harmony founder Neil Clark Warren, who also holds a Master's in Divinity.

    Again, this is article is conspicuously scant on details of the trial arguments, but this makes me wonder if eHarmony's lawyers, the company, or Warren himself argued this in religious terms.

    Now, can you make a sushi chef cook Italian? No. Can you make a sushi chef serve an Italian, yep you can.

    Will Ebony be forced to write white articles? They sell the magazine to anyone who buys it. Beyond that, it sounds like a freedom of speech issue. Reading the article, I don't really believe the author is seriously worried about Ebony.

    There's an alarmist quality to this article, hidden beneath all the Doesn't it make you think rhetoric.

    First they came for eHarmony
    Then they came for the photogs
    Then they came for the Church
     
  18. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Most anti-discrimination laws have clauses like this one:

    "Any person claiming to be aggrieved by an alleged discriminatory act based on race, sex, familial status, color, national origin, age, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, genetic testing, physical and/or mental disability is protected."

    "2. It is unlawful for an owner or operator of a place of public accommodation to deny a person any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges because of his/her race, creed, sex, age, color, national origin, marital status, or physical or mental disability."


    (That's from Maryland, BTW)

    What this means:

    if you have a business, you may not refuse service to black man, a woman, non-family member, an arab, a teenager, a Jew, an unmarried couple, a homosexual, or someone with a physical or mental disability.

    This usually includes housing, so if you don't want to rent to that nice mixed race gay couple, don't put it up for rent.


    Now, where are some legal lines?
    I'm a web designer. I don't do porn sites, or gambling sites.
    I also don't host them, because my data center has restrictions against such things.

    I do not design or host sites that involve the sale of Tobacco products.
    The short version is, laws surrounding those sites are complex and outside my area of specialty. I have a list of companies experienced in that industry that I refer the rare inquiry to.

    I'm a photographer.
    There is a divide between my hobby work and my paid work.
    If you are paying me to shoot, that line is simple. "Is it legal?" and is it within my "areas of specialty". I can turn down wedding shoots, because I don't do them normally. I can't turn down something just because I don't like the subject.
    If it's something for my own portfolio, I shoot what I like, and that's perfectly legal.
     
  19. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah, but you see, you can... you don't have to SAY that you don't like it... you can simply say you're not up to it, there's something fubar-ed with your camera, you've got a headache, you got a cake burning in the oven, your mother is in from outta town, you ran out of gas, your grandmother died, you sprained your ankle, and so on and so on... you don't have to give the REAL or ANY reason why. You can simply say I cannot do it. And leave it at that. You can be nice and recommend someone who you know could do it.
    Now, is this going to endear you to the folks wanting to hire you for your services... probably not. Does it matter? I think not because it's your integrity and self respect that has to be maintained. If you want to then by all means go ahead, if you don't want to then don't.
    You do have the right to say "no".
     
  20. Gordon Nore

    Gordon Nore Senior Master

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    ...furthermore, and I think this the source of the controversy, you cannot make these exception based upon personal religious belief. That's how I read these cases. And that is why disingenuous arguments are made for a separate but equal status for same-sex couples.123
     

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