The rant thread

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Don Roley, May 3, 2006.

  1. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    Honestly now, I really don't understand this. Where the heck are the "guts" in doing this?

    I wouldn't say that I'm afraid, for me it's more of a matter of integrity.
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,590
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    I suspect you also find conversations frustrating, because I suspect you're focused on how to respond to what someone is saying, instead of hearing what they say. It's really tempting to do that, and lots of people do it, but it really hampers communication, because what often happens is that both people are so wrapped up in what they're going to say that neither is hearing what they actually are saying.

    The same thing can happen with training; you see the instructor demonstrate something that you think you know, so you're locked in on where you're going to have problems, and you miss that they're doing something slightly different. It's also a common problem, and it's frustrating. I've been there, on all the sides. I've tried to teach students who were so locked into "I already know" that they couldn't see what I was doing, and I've worked with others in clinics or classes who were intent on doing their own thing because they think they "already know" the technique being demonstrated, and I've had times when I missed important details because I didn't pay attention because I "already knew" the lesson... It helps me to remember a story from my instructor. He'd take students or he'd go to visit his instructor, and they'd be taught the same lesson, time and time again. It finally dawned on my teacher that if his teacher is epeating the same lesson -- they must not have it right yet.

    (As to the kid with the 59-Fifty straight brim... assuming that you are basing your suspicions and subsequent observations on training and experience, that's just doing your job. And assuming that you don't jump till he's actually done something...)
     
  3. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Hey guys, great thread here. As a karate person who's interested in eventually trying Bujinkan I'm finding out a lot here.

    My question relates to what you guys are talking about regarding your master's age and the fact that there seems to be some diversion from traditional movements in students outside of his purview. Now, this may have been covered before but I've gotta ask.

    What efforts if any are being made to document the style while he's still here with us? I don't know the depth of the Bujinkan learning materials or what's available out there. I would hope that they are making a concerted effort to record his every class, lecture, movement for posterity. Hell, with modern technology his very movements can be motion captured (or the movements of a younger one of his students who he deems as having good form). Maybe even the highest level of instructors can handle it with the master's overview/creative control.

    A decline in form can be stemmed with some work but I think a big step would be to definitively lay down in text/DVD/whatever containing as much as can be imparted. Making it an official text or teacher's manual to supplement training.

    I'm just asking because I've got quite a number of books and DVDs on Kyokushin and Seido which I constantly go back to to reread, check my form against or just to look over so I don't have a slide in my own form.
     
  4. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28


    Learning about the Bujinkan on forums is like learning how to be a doctor by reading the obituaries.

    As for everything else, there's more DVDs than you can shake a stick at.
     
  5. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    What, something against me reading a thread about it? Your analogy doesn't work, me reading a thread about bujinkan to find out about bujinkan is a corollary, not reading the obituaries to find out about doctors.

    And I was not talking about DVDs specifically, I was talking about using technology in general to preserve the art. Notice I did mention motion capture since it's served as a great learning tool in many other places, including sports and other martial arts.
     
  6. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28

    Sorry, should have included this:

    :)


    Edit: I thought about it, and stand by my analogy. (The version with the happy face)
     
  7. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    Actually, if anything it's the other way around. I have a fairly extensive memory, so I can immediately notice when someone is contradicting him/herself.
     
  8. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    This past month has shown a dramatic increase in violent resistance during apprehensions around my parts. The interesting thing about it is that you learn real fast that the dynamics put into play are completely different from attack-oriented training, which is what most people do normally. In other words, you need to modify your tactics when you're no longer trying to control a person trying to fight you, but who's merely doing everything he can to get away, especially as you're not allowed to hit him before he does the same thing.
     
  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,590
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Two comments...

    First, while you have to stay within your employer's guidelines & policy, you should generally be able to use force when you can articulate that the suspect is going to attack you. Waiting till they actually try it, or you get hit is a way to get hurt or worse...

    Second, while sometimes it's just the way it goes (X-mas season, more apprehensions, more apprehensions = more arrests... or just more knuckleheads resisting), it's worth it to assess what you're doing, and see if there's anything YOU might be doing thats triggering the resistance. For example, one day I was just generally pissed off. EVERYONE I stopped that day gave me attitude... But, really, they were just responding to my own attitude.
     
  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,752
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    This is really good advice and something you should take to hart. Critically examine what you are doing to see if for some reason you are triggering the resistance. I have been in the same place as jks so if you can control the elements that you can control and manipulate the situation better you may be getting less resistance when you make an arrest. Still having worked LP a long time ago X-mas does bring out the freaks! [​IMG] Always work with over whelming numbers upon an arrest if possible! Good luck!
     
  11. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    I can use all the force I want as soon as he's passed the last sales point, as long as I don't punch or kick him.
     
  12. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    13,461
    Likes Received:
    730
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Athol, Ma. USA
    WOW pretty background but a little to dark on my screen
    still I like it
     
  13. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    Someone recently commented in all seriousness that I should consider writing for Bujinmag. Sorry, man -not gonna happen.
     
  14. Bigshadow

    Bigshadow Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,033
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Saint Cloud, Florida
    In all seriousness, why not?
     
  15. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    For one thing, the same people who find me incomprehensible are the ones you'll frequently hear saying "well, what Soke means, is that..."
     
  16. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,752
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Still if you feel the need you should get your opinion out there as well! [​IMG]
     
  17. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    That's CLASSIC. I feel a new Sig coming on, or maybe a tshirt? Something to sell at Tai Kai?
     
  18. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    I read a book called "The Seekers" about bounty hunters awhile back, found this when I tried to google for it...
    "THE SEEKERS" e-book!

    They speak about this very thing, how their attitude and respectful approach allowed for a high number of violence-free apprehensions. It's worth a read, though I'm not sure of the accuracy or authenticity.
     
  19. Doc_Jude

    Doc_Jude 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Southern Kalifornia
    That crap annoys the hell outta me. Unless they know what they're talking about. Usually I only listen to Doug Wilson, Tim Bathurst, George Ohashi, Mark O'Brien, Sean Askew, Kevin Millis, Bill Atkins & the like. Not just any shmoe that wanders in and speaks a little nihongo.

    Story: Once when I was at Ayase, one of the Japanese shihan that doesn't train with Soke very often came in and Soke called him up and to put it simply embarrassed him in general. They were doing muto dori from dai jodan, yoko aruki to evade and then step in blocking the return cut at the tsuba or hand/disarm or whatever. He must have had this guy repeat it over I don't know, 30 times or something. Everyone was embarrassed for the guy (name starts with Na-, teaches in Tokyo, you might know who I'm talking about).

    Anyways, this Aussie next to me asked me what Soke was saying to the guy. I told him that Soke was telling him he should come and train more. We laughed and then some snobby Brit kicks in and admonished me on not talking unless I actually "knew what Soke was trying to convey" and then went off on this detailed woo-woo description of that last five minutes of dialog. Later at the bar, George told me that I REALLY got what Soke was saying.

    "Shut Up and Train." It just never gets old, huh?
     
  20. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,590
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Translation is an art in and of itself, and I suspect that's even more true while simultaneously translating dialogue, intent, and physical skills. I know that Hatsumi has several regular translators; these people train with him frequently, and have the chance to get to know him. They know that even though he may be saying one thing in literal translation, he's meaning something that doesn't lend itself to literal translation or even to direct translation; it's something more and different.123
     

Share This Page