The rant thread

[Don Roley]

One more thing while I am in the mood.

You know how some people talk about history and make speculations on the internet.

Well....don't do it.

It is one thing to pass along information, quote and reccomend books. It is another to try to build up new information by way of anology and such. Unless you know the subject really, really well you are probably just going to miss the mark and spread a false image.

I would be rich if I had a dime for ever time someone mentioned the straight blades the Japanese used in the eighth century when we discuss if the ninjas used straight blades or not. It is like saying that the US army used muskets in the war of independance and so maybe....just maybe some of the guys that went ashore at Normandy also had one. If you know the full picture you would know just how silly some things sound on the internet. But people who can't even read the language.... who can't even find Kyoto on the map even, drop these things into discussions and leave folks like me to explain all the reasons why it is not as it first sounds.

And people wonder why I jump up and down on folks "just trying to help." :mp5:

 

[Don Roley]

And yet another rant on the same lines as my last post.

Do we really need yet another article out there?

There is a saying, those who can't do, teach. I think it should be updated to read, those who can't do, teach others on the internet.

I tend to know more about things like Japanesee history and the like than 99 percent of the folks in the Bujinkan. Yet I have made a choice to not put out too much info out there. If there is a need, then I will do it. But I would rather keep up my studies and become more certain with what I know than possibly polute the well of knowledge.

Is there a reason for writing something? Are you so certain about the accuracy of what you write that you agree to let someone cut your testicles off if you are wrong?

Well, if there is not need and you are just showing off and you aren't willing to put your manhood on- line then go read a good book!!!!!

Honestly, there are guys here like Kizaru that have forgotten more about the subject than most folks will ever learn. You may note that he does not post much. Between all the would- be frauds and the folks trying to impress others with all that they can spew out, it gets discouraging.

I am honestly kind of sick to my stomach after looking over some stuff that is based on shaky understanding and passed on and expanded on by others until it just does not have any bearing on the reality I see being presented in Japan. There was a comment by Hatsumi years ago about the danger of the internet. One of the big things IMO, is that too many people with too little knowledge are writing things that do not have to be written.

 

[Carol]

I am honestly kind of sick to my stomach after looking over some stuff that is based on shaky understanding and passed on and expanded on by others until it just does not have any bearing on the reality I see being presented in Japan. There was a comment by Hatsumi years ago about the danger of the internet. One of the big things IMO, is that too many people with too little knowledge are writing things that do not have to be written.

But that could be said about nearly anything sir. Could be Taijutsu. Could be an engineering trade journal.

In general...if a person heeds a warning, that is very passive behaviour. To me, a warning is not a rule, nor is it a thing to be acknoweldged. A warning is a jewel, a valuable piece of intel. A warning identifies a threat.

When a threat is identified, a counter attack can be planned.

But a counter-attack takes knowledge, discipline, structure, and effort. All of these things are hard to do. It is much easier to be passive and nod ones head and agree that a bad thing is a bad thing. It is difficult to realize results. For indeed, some of the most difficult decisions in life are to choose what is right over what is easy.

It leaves me to wonder rhetorically...is the rant truly against those whose writings may not be up to the standards of those set in Japan?

Or, is it against those who have squandered the precious gift of forbearance from Hatsumi-sensei by refusing to expend any efforts in to an committed counter-attack that dominates its detractors...instead, being content with passively wishing them away?


Again, you challenge me to think. Respects to you sir. :asian:

 

[eyebeams]

Good rant; sorry the quality has declined so much in one generation, but it seems to represent a trend...something about the distance of apples from trees, and all that.

Regards,

Dave

Everybody says this about everything. But there's plenty of evidence of improvement over time in some respects. Karate in North America is more technically competent than it has ever been, and there are videos that show this beyond most doubt. On the other hand, the values attached to an art change, so these guys who can nail, say, Bassai like no karateka has ever nailed it before might not be better fighters. They might be worse.

 

[Don Roley]

It leaves me to wonder rhetorically...is the rant truly against those whose writings may not be up to the standards of those set in Japan?

Or, is it against those who have squandered the precious gift of forbearance from Hatsumi-sensei by refusing to expend any efforts in to an committed counter-attack that dominates its detractors...instead, being content with passively wishing them away?

Hmmm, now you have made me think- always a dangerous situation.:anic:

There are people that run around saying, "this does not impact my training, so why bother?"

These are the folks that stand on the sidelines as people like Ashida Kim peddle their..... I can't say it on Martialtalk without triggering the curse filters.

There are people that make a point of making video home black belt courses with the excuse that they need to get the art out to as many people as possible. I think they are idiots. But these are the same folks that do not seem to want to get their reputation sullied by being labled as argumentative by telling folks that a fraud is a fraud.

I am not talking about idiots that go looking for trouble by trolling on the Ashida Kim boards. I am talking about the folks that see stuff on sites they are members of about Ron Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and a lot of other frauds and just will not say anything negative. They care too much about their reputation to bother to say something that may help keep some poor soul from wasting time and energy training under a fraud.

Oh yeah, and when you ask them why they study ninjutsu the typical answer is that they want to make the world a better place.

On the other hand, I know a guy that tried to tell folks that their understanding of Shinden Fudo ryu was flawed and that they were going in the wrong direction. This was the group trying to compile their notes I mentioned. The idiots all banded together to say that since this guy (who knows more than the rest of them combined) was merely a student (oh yeah- in Japan for years :uhyeah: ) he should remain quite and listen to the teachers :barf:

Yeah, I want to take both the folks that won't warn people about Ashida Kim types if given the chance and the folks that spread too much based on their meager knowledge and :snipe2:

 

[Don Roley]

This is kind of a rant... But also kind of a statement of confusion.

Let me take the long way around in getting to my point.

I was in Japan when Luke Molitor came to live and train here. I remember when he left to return to Dallas. At the time, one of the guys familiar with him and the situation back in his home in Texas said that finally there would be a good teacher for what had been a black hole for the Bujinkan. Obviously he is well thought of and someone many people should emulate, right?

Well, on the last session at Someya's before he left it was just him and me. Someya asked him if he had ever seen naginata or spear kata. Luke said no- not in Japan at least. So we did a kata from each.

When we were changing and cleaning, Luke made a comment that he now had two things he would not be teaching in America. I asked for clarification. He said that he only would consider things that he had seen more than once, in a situation where he could be corrected by the teacher. After seeing it for the first time, he would practice the move a lot (I mean a lot- the guy had a huge DSB level when he left Japan) and then go back to the teacher. If they teacher nodded in approval, it would be ready to pass along to others- after some more training of course. Oh yeah, and Luke was a close student to the teachers he had in Japan- not just another guy in the crowd.

So, considering the above, I really have to wonder about people that come out with videos and such that list all the kata from certain schools.

I am not talking about people that teach what they think a feeling is, or a specific kata. I am talking about someone who might come out with a DVD on the kata of Gyokko ryu- all of them.

I have been studying Shinden Fudo ryu this year, and it is now June. And I know there are kata I have not been taught from this school. Some of the kata I have seen more than once, but some I have not seen at all as far as I can tell. So how are people that show up for three weeks supposed to know all the kata from the school?

True, I tend to go to class more like three times a week rather than three times a day that some visitors attend. And my main teacher, Nagase, spends a lot of time on basics and application for combat than kata. But I just can't believe that people can honestly have seen and trained in all the kata from a school like the Shinden Fudo ryu in only a few weeks in Japan.

So, do they learn it from videos and then make their own? Do they go to seminars and see it once before making their videos? They don't bother to get them checked by the best instructors in the world before coming out with their versions of the kata? Some people are making certain kata requirements for rank in their dojo. Did they get tested on the knowledge like they are making others do?

Hey, this year I am making a huge effort to try to get everything I can from the Shinden Fudo ryu. I am bugging a friend of mine to show me what he knows from classes I have not attended so that I will be in a better position to learn when I see them sometime in class. I am going to more classes with shihan that teach the kata. I am actually asking them to show me stuff I know I have not been shown before. But part of me thinks that is bad.

The truth is that even one of the kata is a thing of beauty. There is so much in just one that I would gleefully spend a month on it. First I would get the movement down 100 percent correct (or as close as I could). Then I would drill into me the habits from the components of the kata and make them my own. Then I would play and explore with all the various applications you could spin off from the lessons underlying them. Rushing through to get all the kata seems to be taking a risk of gaining only shallow knowledge of the form before moving onto the next. The term 'kata collector' comes to mind. Rather than getting skills, you get something to brag about and compare with others.

So, what does this say about people who come out with videos of the kata of an entire school? How about those that have videos and/or rank requirements for multiple schools? They know all of them? They have had a real teacher of the level of Noguchi or Nagato show them the moves and correct their mistakes before they come out with these things to sell? Other people are relying on these things as honest examples and yet they don't take the time to make 100 percent certain that what they do would pass muster with Hatsumi?

Folks, I just don't believe it.

 

[Dale Seago]

Folks, I just don't believe it.

I'm with ya, bro. It gives one a feeling of the limits of credulity being stretched to the utmost that is painfully akin to making the intimate acquaintance of Bubba in a lonely prison cell.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

On another subject for a rant....
Hatsumi has said that he gives out rank sometimes earlier than maybe the person deserves it. They have to then grow into it.

Really, rank is a distraction. It is a gift, a compliment, a pat on the back and encouragement to keep going.

Don, I understand where you are coming from, and I mean no disrespect by my next question, but don't you think this is where the problem stems from.

You yourself have just stated in posts in THIS thread that there are bujinkan instructors teaching others techniques they themselves do not yet fully understand at best , or know at worst. Correct?

So...Why are people training with this instructors? Isn't it because the rank that hangs around their waist or sewn to their Gi makes the newcomer trust them to be competent?

If I walked into a dojo and saw an instructor with the rank of Godan, shouldn't it be perfectly logical for me to assume that what he has the ability to teach as a representative of the bujinkan is that of what Hatsumi would consider to be godan level?

As I mentioned to Dale once, we had a foreign student attend our dojo once, who at 5th kyu and he could not perform a proper ukemi, or breakfall and had no understanding of balance taking. It had been the first time the young man had trained outside of his own dojo was very upset and confused when he saw the skill level of the students around him. This is not right. This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do. Surely there has to be some way to regulate the level and quality of instruction for each rank. I understand the idea behind giving a student a rank for them to grow into it...but I believe this becomes a dangerous exercise once the ranks fall into a place which gives someone the licence to teach our art.
Kind regards
Nick

 

[Don Roley]

Rubber Tanto,
Welcome to martialtalk. I hope your experience here is an informative one.

In answer to your post, I think the subject you raise deserves a thread of its own. In this thread my message was not to take on the way Hatsumi does things, but to get people who read this and make a big stink about their rank to reconsider. I think they should brag less and try to work harder to be worthy of what they think Hatsumi believes them capable of.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So...Why are people training with this instructors? Isn't it because the rank that hangs around their waist or sewn to their Gi makes the newcomer trust them to be competent?

I don't think most people care about the instructor's credentials right off the bat. They're more likely to stay there if they like the atmosphere of the place.

If I walked into a dojo and saw an instructor with the rank of Godan, shouldn't it be perfectly logical for me to assume that what he has the ability to teach as a representative of the bujinkan is that of what Hatsumi would consider to be godan level?

It should, but then again some people who have godan shouldn't.

It had been the first time the young man had trained outside of his own dojo was very upset and confused when he saw the skill level of the students around him. This is not right.

That's exactly what you SHOULD be doing - checking out different people's approaches. In PC terms, it's because you might find a way of training that suits you better. In less PC terms, it's the only way to find out who sucks.

This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do.

That's actually not always the case. In many cases he's paid money to be able to move around a little, get some exercise, meet people and feel good about himself.

I understand the idea behind giving a student a rank for them to grow into it...but I believe this becomes a dangerous exercise once the ranks fall into a place which gives someone the licence to teach our art.

I agree, and part of what I feel is the explanation to this can be read below.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=543263&postcount=65

 

[Bigshadow]

This person paid their hard-earned money to learn and grow just like you and I do.

Hi Nick, welcome to Martial Talk! Do you mind if throw my .02 cents worth in here? In my opinion, the true learning is abstract from the money one pays to learn. One could spend a fortune and learn nothing. It is important that the student develop the eyes to seek and identify good training. So maybe it was time for that student to find out there is so much more, maybe he was ready. In my opinion, students get what they deseve out of training, regardless of how much they spend.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

LOL... you know a very long time ago, an instructor I was fighting pretended to hit me in the face and as I went to block it he kicked me in the groin....the replies to my post kind of remind me of that early time in my martial arts career.

By the most, Nimravus & Big Shadow, all you have done is taken my post, broken it down into individual sentences and answered each line which alas took the entire meaning or the paragraph as a whole and pushed it out of context. Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching? Please clarify with a yes or no answer. This question requires no manipulation of kukan... lol

I don't think most people care about the instructor's credentials right off the bat. They're more likely to stay there if they like the atmosphere of the place.

Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?

That's actually not always the case. In many cases he's paid money to be able to move around a little, get some exercise, meet people and feel good about himself.

Gym classes and aerobics classes do that for you. What happened to the "Martial" in martial arts?

I'm not really here to pick a fight. People like Dale, who knows me from other threads, knows that I care quite deeply about the quality of instruction in the bujinkan. I was merely touching on a topic that Don raised in this thread. I don't want to detract from his initial topic. So I will leave it there. BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.

~Nick

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The true point is that it is not up to us who passes the Godan test. That is decided by Soke. (not you or me or anyone else) We must just trust his judgement on this and continue to train to our best.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Rich Parsons]

The true point is that it is not up to us who passes the Godan test. That is decided by Soke. (not you or me or anyone else) We must just trust his judgement on this and continue to train to our best.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Sorry for the Ignorant Question. Do all of the x-Kans look to Soke (* Not sure if this is the proper title for a non-member of the system, if not I apologize. *) for promotion? It would not surprise me that this had been answered before and if so a link to that thread would be nice.

Thank you

 

[Don Roley]

BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.

I think Brian kind of touched on this but I really don't see how you expect any of us to do anything about the way Hatsumi grades people. There are a few threads about rank in the Bujinkan that you can search for. But if you want to repair something, you are going to have to go up to Hatsumi and tell him what he is doing wrong.opcorn:

Oh, and Rich- no one other than members of the Bujinkan look to Hatsumi for ranking.

 

[saru1968]

Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?

Hi Nick

Nice to see you here.

I think if the said individual has not the skillset, attitude to teach correctly then the problem is contained within 'why was the person graded 1st-4th Dan' if they have not the ability.

 

[ginshun]

Sorry for the Ignorant Question. Do all of the x-Kans look to Soke (* Not sure if this is the proper title for a non-member of the system, if not I apologize. *) for promotion? It would not surprise me that this had been answered before and if so a link to that thread would be nice.

Thank you

As Don said, Hatsumi has nothing to do with ranking in the X-Kans, but if I recall correctly, (and I apologize if this is inaccurate, because I have never belonged to either of them) they both do however have pretty strict guidlines and testing for what a person must know and be able to do to achive specific ranks within their organization. Ranks are not just handed out by Menaka and Tenamura as they deem fit. I assume they could give somebody whatever rank they wanted, but from what I understand, thats not how it is done.

Edit: According to the Jinenkan websight, the rank testing is "rigorous" amd each level from 3 kyu and up have strict requirements. It also says that only Manaka can cunduct test for 3rd dan and up.

 

[Bigshadow]

Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching?

I do not qualify that decision, only soke does. If you don't think a particular godan is capable of teaching you something, don't train with that godan (as I would do the same), you are responsible for the quality of your training. It is your choice, not mine.

Being godan doesn't make one a teacher. It is the point at which you can get your shidoshi license (if I understand that correctly) if one chooses to. A teacher is someone who can convey the knowledge. There are some who can do but cannot teach, because they cannot transfer that knowledge, but they understand for themselves. Then there are those who can do, but can also articulate the knowledge so that others can learn. However, as I understand it passing the godan test means that you simply passed the godan test, not a teaching test. It doesn't bestow teaching ability. Certainly most would expect that new godan to have had the proper training by that point in time, but as you are probably aware, there are people who have never trained that can pass the godan test.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Are you saying that is okay for some godans to not be at the level of godan when teaching?

There are a lot of things Bujinkan-wise that I don't feel are ok. That doesn't mean I can really do anything against them.

Sure. I agree. But that is not what I asked. I asked if an instructor should be competant enough to teach at the level he has been ranked at. Godan is a rank of teaching, yes?

Actually, in U?G.P! Hatsumi complains about people who only care about attaining their godan so that they can run off and start teaching, instead of learning more.

Gym classes and aerobics classes do that for you.

Not for the middle-aged and older people who enroll in the Bujinkan because that is their only training option that guarantees they'll be able to keep up physically whilst training.

What happened to the "Martial" in martial arts?

What happened, if you ask me, is this: as Don Roley so eloquently put it, when Hatsumi is demonstrating something in Hombu or Ayase these days, he has to take it down a few notches in terms of intensity, because otherwise there is a very real risk that the maniacs in the crowd will get a little too excited and kill someone. And from this people draw the conclusion that they should always train that way.

BUT, one thing many of you must realise is that as long as you all sweep aside or ignore something you clearly know to require consideration and regulation to improve or repair it, it will never be improved. It will never be repaired.

I've thought about this for a while myself and I am beginning to wonder if this isn't the not-so-pleasant side effect of the "shut up and train" maxim.

 

[Rich Parsons]

As Don said, Hatsumi has nothing to do with ranking in the X-Kans, but if I recall correctly, (and I apologize if this is inaccurate, because I have never belonged to either of them) they both do however have pretty strict guidlines and testing for what a person must know and be able to do to achive specific ranks within their organization. Ranks are not just handed out by Menaka and Tenamura as they deem fit. I assume they could give somebody whatever rank they wanted, but from what I understand, thats not how it is done.

Edit: According to the Jinenkan websight, the rank testing is "rigorous" amd each level from 3 kyu and up have strict requirements. It also says that only Manaka can cunduct test for 3rd dan and up.

Thanks