Gee, I have to disagree with that. We have blocks that are also strikes, for example. Blocks that are also traps. Blocks that become strikes. And so on. I'm just a rookie, but it seems to me that there are lots more movements than just those.
The problem of breaking up the kata...
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Gee, I have to disagree with that. We have blocks that are also strikes, for example. Blocks that are also traps. Blocks that become strikes. And so on. I'm just a rookie, but it seems to me that there are lots more movements than just those.
To block with the same arm and punch back with the same arm is still "block and strike". In TCMA, it's called Ha Chuan. You just use the same arm to do both jobs. For simplicity, I prefer to put it into the same category (You may category it as the 4th category if you prefer). If you combine "block and stirke" with "switch hands", you can come up with a lot of fancy hand combos.
For example:
1. left upward block,
2. right straight punch,
3. left downward block,
4. right downward block,
5. left back fist.
where 1,2 are "block and strike". 3,4,5 are "switch hands".
Another example:
1. right inside out block,
2. left inside out block,
3. right straight punch,
4. right downward block,
5. left upper cut.
where 1,2,3 are "switch hands" and 4,5 are "block and strike".
Of course you can use your block to bounce your opponent's arm away, or stick on his arm. It's still a block. You can call your block as deflect, trap, sticky, yield, ... For simplicity, I prefer to still call it block.
For example:
1. left upward block,
2. right straight punch,
3. left downward block,
4. right downward block,
5. left back fist.
where 1,2 are "block and strike". 3,4,5 are "switch hands".
Another example:
1. right inside out block,
2. left inside out block,
3. right straight punch,
4. right downward block,
5. left upper cut.
where 1,2,3 are "switch hands" and 4,5 are "block and strike".
Of course you can use your block to bounce your opponent's arm away, or stick on his arm. It's still a block. You can call your block as deflect, trap, sticky, yield, ... For simplicity, I prefer to still call it block.
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I think there are way more than just the 3, but if you really try to, and completely ignore any sort of locks or grappling, or weapon stuff(just stick with striking)you can fit things into those categories plus one (counters). blocks and strikes would fall under 'block and strike', traps would be ignored as they are not 'strikes' per se, more grappling, and to be perfectly honest, I can't think of anything thats purely striking that wouldnt fit into one of these 4 categories.
In the "Enter The Dragon" movie, Bruce Lee used "switch hands". In the following clip at 1.01 - 1.20, Bruce's right arm contacts his opponent's right arm. Bruce used his left arm to take over and free his right arm for his stratight punch. Most of the time when you see a fancy technique, 99% of the time it's just a form of "switch hands". The "switch hands" exist in all MA systems. Sometime we may not pay attention to it.
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This i have to disagree with. Where did you come up with that statistic? To me, that's the least used of the 4, if you're generalizing them that much. Maybe Bruce Lee used it the most, I wouldn't know since I never paid too much attention to him, but outside of that, I see a lot more block/strike, dodge/strike, and counter than i do switch hands. Also, if I may ask, whats the relevance of Bruce Lee using those a lot in this thread?
I said "fancy" technique. The following are all "switch hands":
- Taiji "fetching arm",
- longfist "double blocks punch",
- praying mantis "Gou Lou Tzi Shou",
- WC "Tan Pai Shou",
- Bagua "double switch hands",
- ...
It exists in Karate Sanchin Kata as well.
- Taiji "fetching arm",
- longfist "double blocks punch",
- praying mantis "Gou Lou Tzi Shou",
- WC "Tan Pai Shou",
- Bagua "double switch hands",
- ...
It exists in Karate Sanchin Kata as well.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I disagree, and it depends.
I believe kata can intend to teach different things. It depends on the kata and it depends on the system.
But what I've found in my system is that forms primarily teach principles, and to do so often includes exaggerated movement because that helps the body get a better grasp on the principles. So the way movement is done in the form, as exaggerated movement, is often not "as close to the real combat as possible". Our forms are not just a collection of techniques. They teach principles of how to move and how to engage the body when delivering a technique, and then they teach examples of such. But they are not meant to be a list and compilation of all of our techniques. As examples they just show you what is possible. It's up to you to develop a broader vision of what is possible, and the examples held in the form help get you on your way.
If you try to make all the techniques in the kata as close to real combat as possible, then you are undermining the principles and the teaching methodology. In my system, teaching you to fight is not the point of forms. Rather, the forms give you a way to develop certain skills and a vision that are useful in fighting. But the form is not an enactment of a fight. Sometimes it's a fine distinction, but an important one. Kata/forms need to be kept in the proper perspective, or they aren't doing you as much good as you might think.
How kata is used in your system may be different, but this is what's going on in my system. Your mileage may vary.
If you have a body forward bending move in your Kata, you can map that principle into "hip throw" or "shoulder throw". Both throws may use the same footwork. Since hip throw requires one of your arms to surround your opponent's waist and another arm to wrap your opponent's arm. The shoulder throw requires both of your arms to wrap on your opponent's arm. The set up are different. If you don't map your arms move for the throw, just by bending your upper body forward will not be able to help you to develop either "hip throw" or "shoulder throw".
When you punch, you may want to pull your other hand back to your waist. This will help you to have the maximum body extension in order to generate the maximum power. In combat, your non-punching arm should protect your body instead.
In solo Kata training, you only care about power and balance. You won't care about timing, opportunity, and angle because you don't have opponent as your reference point. If you have an imaginary opponent in front of you, you may do your Kata differently.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
again, the way forms are practiced in my system is apparently different from how it is in yours. That's all I'm pointing out. And it can change everything around kata/forms.
Form are designed for teaching and learning only. It's not designed for training. By repeating Shakespeare's play 10,000 times won't make you a play writer. I don't train forms. I only train drills. I either take drills out of my forms, or I just create my own drills.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
i disagree.
Yes, I also feel the principles are first and then the categorizing of techniques. It is for this reason that each movement within the kata is done a certain way, whether it is stance movement or technique. Principles are the doorways to many rooms.
Let me give another example just for the sake of discussion. Assume your form contains 3 sentences:
- I love you.
- Who are you?
- Where are you going?
So the form is "I love you Who are you Where are you going" Please notice that the last word of the 1st sentence "you" has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 2nd sentence "Who". The last word of the 2nd sentence "you" also has no logic connection to the 1st word of the 3rd sentence "Where".
If you train "I love you" 10 times, "Who are you" 10 times, and "Where are you going" 10 times. You will get the same benefit as if you train the whole form 10 times. By breaking up your form into 3 drills and train those drills separately, you will understand how combo is construct. You can also detect the redundency.
To force yourself to train the non-logical connection such as between "you (such a a punch to the east)" and "who (such as a punch to the west)" because the form creator created the from this way just make no sense to me.
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A kata in traditional MA is made up of segments of combat and have accompanying drills to correspond with each kata. Kata is not one continuous battle, but as I said, segments of battles. Also if a part of the kata makes no sense, it is because the true meaning is just below the surface and needs to be looked at a little closer.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
honestly, I have no idea what you are getting at.
Seasoned has just stated what I'm trying to say.
Kata is not one continuous battle, so why train continuous? We should train "each segment of battles" separately. We should not train the whole Kata as a long sequence.
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Many paths are correct Mr. Wang, this is my path.
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A form "I love you" has subject, verb, and object. By using the same grammer, you can construct:
He hates me.
Dog bites cat.
...
If the form has groin kick, face punch combo, by learning that form, we should be able to come up:
- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- ...
When the form creator created that form, he may want to pass the grammer more than that sentence. We should not just train that form. We should analysis it and digest it.
He hates me.
Dog bites cat.
...
If the form has groin kick, face punch combo, by learning that form, we should be able to come up:
- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- ...
When the form creator created that form, he may want to pass the grammer more than that sentence. We should not just train that form. We should analysis it and digest it.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
How can you learn it if you do not train it?
Are you saying the form should be taken as an example? Like a template from which to create your own set movements? I disagree if that is the case. The movements themselves were designed for a specific purpose and so they should be practiced both in a continuous kata and as individual drills in my opinion.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
Regarding my point about names and motions in the kata. One thing that breaking the kata up with numbers does is blank out the assumptions the names cause when trying to pass on the kata. I've had a lot of success with helping students understand the applications and the nature of applications with this method.
