The pope and his Islamic quotes

[mrhnau]

I just read this, regarding the recent comments from the pope.

I find it a bit ironic... The pope quoted implicated that Islam has tended to be irrational and violent. Islamic leaders around the world have gone bananas over the quote. One might even say that they are acting irrationally and some groups are encouraging the assassination of the pope, which sure is violent. Are they in fact proving that the pope is correct? They seem more concerned over words than murder by the radical fundamentalists.

This reminds me of the Danish cartoons portraying Mohhamed (sp) with a bomb in his turban. Papers in Saudi Arabia portraying Jesus in a bad manor would go simply unnoticed. No uproar from the catholic church or the US. Just seems a bit two-faced...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I've been wondering about that myself.

 

[Andrew Green]

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

~ Pope Urban II

Guess there is more then one religion which has tended to be violent...

Crusades
Inquisitions
Witch Hunts
Ordeals

"Many Christians believed Nazism to be a Christian movement.[1] Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.[1]+ ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion

Nope, not alone in fanatacism within the religion...

This reminds me of the Danish cartoons portraying Mohhamed (sp) with a bomb in his turban. Papers in Saudi Arabia portraying Jesus in a bad manor would go simply unnoticed. No uproar from the catholic church or the US. Just seems a bit two-faced...

Yes, it does. But I think both sides are definately guilty on both doing it, and complaining about it. The West has become a little more "accepting" of satire, even of religion though. Largely because we got more variety. Jesus is portrayed in humor even over here, so it would be harder for most people over here to complain

 

[CoryKS]

Reminds me of a conversation a couple of friends were having while we played pool:

Friend 1: "Pool is a gentleman's sport."

Friend 2: "No, it isn't. Pool is a redneck sport."

Friend 1 points to two large men playing a couple tables down: "Bet you wouldn't say that to them."

Friend 2: "What, they're going to kick my butt? That makes them rednecks! You just proved my point!"

 

[King]

Pretty appaling response. I remember reading an article about some Islamic leaders instigating its followers to fire bomb churches. I can't find the article I read originally, but I found something worse:

"The killing of an Italian nun and her bodyguard Sunday at a children's hospital in Mogadishu, Somalia, raised speculation that it was carried out in reaction to the pope's remarks on Islam. (Full story)"

"In addition, Palestinian security sources said a church in Tulkarem was attacked Sunday with Molotov cocktails, and there was an attempted attack on a church in Tubas, near Jenin."

"Authorities were also investigating Molotov cocktail attacks on three churches in Nablus on Saturday, as well as an attack on a church in Gaza."

All from one link: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.islam/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Religion is so blood-stained.

 

[heretic888]

I pretty much agree with all the responses thus far, but there is also something I would like to expound upon....

Religion is so blood-stained.

It should be pointed out that this is not a product of religion per se, it is a product of human sociocentrism and ethnocentrism. I could point to similar programs that occured under secular ideologies such as Stalinist Russia or Maoist China.

Such events are amost inevitable when groups that adhere to ethnocentric and absolutist values have access to a reservoir of military power. Even those that subsist in small groups with relatively little military or social power are prone to commit acts of violence, as we have seen in our own recent history with the Columbine school shootings or the mob beatings of open homosexuals.

This is very scary stuff and it just illustrates the need for the voice of reason and compassion in today's world.

Laterz.

 

[Ping898]

You know they don't help their cause in proving the Pope was wrong or malicious with his comments by going out and killing Catholics and firebombing Catholic churches....
I don't know that I agree or disagree with the Pope's comments, I haven't paid too much attention to them, but I do feel like killing people because of his comments is a bit of an over reaction.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Nothing better than getting violent over being called violent.

I would say that the Christian faith is dramatically different from its Mideveal/Crusade past. The Islamic faith on the other hand seems to want to go back in time to the Caliphate.

 

[CoryKS]

You know they don't help their cause in proving the Pope was wrong or malicious with his comments by going out and killing Catholics and firebombing Catholic churches....
I don't know that I agree or disagree with the Pope's comments, I haven't paid too much attention to them, but I do feel like killing people because of his comments is a bit of an over reaction.

I feel this statement is a bit of an under reaction. I mean, "a bit"? Killing people because of somebody's words is just a little over the top?

As to whether it helps their cause or not, first you have to determine what the cause is. If their cause is to gain respect through an appeal to common values, then no - this doesn't help. If the cause is to gain "respect" by making people afraid to say anything against them, it helps immensely.

 

[heretic888]

I would say that the Christian faith is dramatically different from its Mideveal/Crusade past.

It is in some parts of the world. There still seems to be quite a lot of Christian violence taking place in Ireland, though, and abortion clinics are routinely attacked by fundamentalists within our own borders.

However, the changes that have taken place in "the Christian faith" are largely a product of the sociohistorical environment it finds itself in. As I have said in other threads, religions evolve in response to their environments.

Laterz.

 

[HG1]

The Islamic extremists are proving the Pope correct. Until the general Islamic population takes responsibility to police it's own radical brethern & stop pointing the finger at other religions as the problem. The world view will continue to see Islam as an intolerant violent religion that screams "Jihad!" at the slightest perceived infraction.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nothing better than getting violent over being called violent.

I would say that the Christian faith is dramatically different from its Mideveal/Crusade past. The Islamic faith on the other hand seems to want to go back in time to the Caliphate.

Don't have to go back that far. Hitler used Christianity to justify himself, the last residential school was shut down in 1996. Ireland has had a bit of a protestant vs Catholic problem...

Anyways, the Popes comments seemed rather "Pot and Kettle" and the Islamic response did as well.

 

[Ping898]

It is in some parts of the world. There still seems to be quite a lot of Christian violence taking place in Ireland, though, and abortion clinics are routinely attacked by fundamentalists within our own borders.

However, the changes that have taken place in "the Christian faith" are largely a product of the sociohistorical environment it finds itself in. As I have said in other threads, religions evolve in response to their environments.

Keep in mind that not all Christians are Catholics. The pope "speaks for" only Roman Catholics and in some parts Polish Catholics, but not every other Catholic or Christian denomination. And though I have nothing to back this up, I think your fundamentalists most often are not of the Roman Catholic faith.

Roman Catholics have a very bloody past and the fighting in Ireland isn't much better, but I like to think that in many ways they have learned from their past and you aren't likely to see the Roman Catholic "nation" take up arms in a cause like the Crusades any time in the near or not so near future.....

 

[heretic888]

And though I have nothing to back this up, I think your fundamentalists most often are not of the Roman Catholic faith.

No, the fundamentalists I am referring to are almost always American Protestants, although it is a little known fact that the Inquisition is still active in some parts of South America by the Catholic Church.

Roman Catholics have a very bloody past and the fighting in Ireland isn't much better, but I like to think that in many ways they have learned from their past and you aren't likely to see the Roman Catholic "nation" take up arms in a cause like the Crusades any time in the near or not so near future.....

I don't believe anybody has really "learned from their past", as people in general and Christians in particular are pretty clueless when it comes to historical factuality. My opinion is that the religions have simply evolved in response to the social and economic environments they now find themselves in.

Laterz.

 

[Ping898]

I feel this statement is a bit of an under reaction. I mean, "a bit"? Killing people because of somebody's words is just a little over the top?

The joys of the internet, intent or underlying expression is often lost....it is not an underreaction so much as an understatement, as it was intended to be.

 

[Ping898]

No, the fundamentalists I am referring to are almost always American Protestants, although it is a little known fact that the Inquisition is still active in some parts of South America by the Catholic Church.

I don't believe anybody has really "learned from their past", as people in general and Christians in particular are pretty clueless when it comes to historical factuality. My opinion is that the religions have simply evolved in response to the social and economic environments they now find themselves in.

Laterz.

But you see some of the groups you are referring too are not Roman Catholics and that is what I am referring too. American Protestants are not Roman Catholics and have no connection to the pope and personally I know nothing of South America so can not respond to it. But Christians or people who call themselves Christians are not necessarily Catholics, and though Roman Catholics are far from perfect on the whole, one need only to look at the abuse debaticle of the last few years to know that, that doesn't mean they haven't learned from their past actions when given an opportunity. I haven't seen a Roman Catholic go an blow up a Muslim mosque because of cartoon depicting Jesus in an ugly way or try to rally everyone in the faith for a religious war because the comments by a Muslim religious leader.....

 

[heretic888]

But you see some of the groups you are referring too are not Roman Catholics and that is what I am referring too. American Protestants are not Roman Catholics and have no connection to the pope and personally I know nothing of South America so can not respond to it.

Please read my posts in context.

You stated the fundamentalists I mentioned in the United States that have attacked abortion clinics were mostly Roman Catholic. I responded that they are almost always Protestant. It is Protestant Christians that are perpetrating most of the religious violence in America, not the Catholics.

Outside of America, though, that's another story.

Laterz.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think the basic thing is that fundamentalists of any religion are a dangerous breed. As soon as someone hits that "My religion is correct and all others are blasphemous, or devil worshipping, or such," it's followers can become very dangerous. Doesn't matter if it is Christians, Muslims or any other religion.

Religion, more then anything else, seems to have the ability to motivate people to do very violent things. "They are sinners against God and it is our duty to punish them, or else we are as bad as them. Any man who fights will go to heaven, those who refuse will be punished for eternity for not joining God's army." Pretty harsh if your beliefs tell you this is fact.

 

[heretic888]

But Christians or people who call themselves Christians are not necessarily Catholics, and though Roman Catholics are far from perfect on the whole, one need only to look at the abuse debaticle of the last few years to know that, that doesn't mean they haven't learned from their past actions when given an opportunity. I haven't seen a Roman Catholic go an blow up a Muslim mosque because of cartoon depicting Jesus in an ugly way or try to rally everyone in the faith for a religious war because the comments by a Muslim religious leader.....

Again, considering the wholescale ignorance most Christians (Catholic or otherwise) have concerning their own history, I have seen or heard nothing that would indicate to me they have "learned from their past actions".

Rather, yet again, it seems to me that Christianity is evolving in response to the changes of their sociocultural environment. Most of the changes in "the Christian faith" is a product of the industrialization and democratization of the West, not some introspective self-learning that Christians have taken upon themselves over the past few centuries.

Have a good one.

 

[heretic888]

I think the basic thing is that fundamentalists of any religion are a dangerous breed. As soon as someone hits that "My religion is correct and all others are blasphemous, or devil worshipping, or such," it's followers can become very dangerous. Doesn't matter if it is Christians, Muslims or any other religion.

Religion, more then anything else, seems to have the ability to motivate people to do very violent things. "They are sinners against God and it is our duty to punish them, or else we are as bad as them. Any man who fights will go to heaven, those who refuse will be punished for eternity for not joining God's army." Pretty harsh if your beliefs tell you this is fact.

Once again, this is not really "religion" per se. It is human sociocentrism and ethnocentrism. The Stalinists and Maoists were saying and doing very similar things not too long ago, and they are as "secular" as it gets.

By contrast, there are a number of religious orientations that do not partake in a sociocentric ideology. Most notably the Deism of the American Founding Fathers and Unitarian-Universalism. Buddhism is also another religious movement that largely avoids this type of thinking.

Laterz.