The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[drop bear]

Your thing there though is regarding bonding and typically when the target is there. That is different than globally disparaging a culture.

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You cannot take offence to me mocking you because it is a cultural aspect and if you do you are a racist.

 

[drop bear]

I too have had experience with a western instructor that tried to "out-Chinese" the Chinese.

Wapanese. Is the term for guys to try to do that in Japan.

 

[Juany118]

You cannot take offence to me mocking you because it is a cultural aspect and if you do you are a racist.

A few things,. The following taken from your quote.

First your "tradition" is about targeting a specific person and not an entire culture. An example of this in another context is you can call a black man convicted of a crime a criminal BUT to call all black people criminals would be bigotry in action.

Second it is, according to your quote, often about bonding which implicitly means people trying to come together for a positive end and that simply mutual acceptance between the individuals in question.

These alone change the context a lot but finally when you are purposefully performing an admittedly anti-social act against another it isn't wrong to call them out on it vs demeaning something that isnt inherently antisocial simply because you don't agree with it.

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[LFJ]

So we have someone that doesn't understand it was Chinese Culture simply also existing in a Chinese MA and disparaging said Chinese Cultural Tradition.

Because I called it a silly martial art culture? It is a martial art culture, hence the term "martial morality".

That doesn't mean it didn't come from a broader culture.

And as I said, thinking it's a silly and destructive thing to bring into the martial arts is not a judgement of the entire culture.

So, your "globally disparaging" accusation is also false.

You even went on later trying to justify it using examples of other Chinese Cultural traditions, such as face saving, to justify this statement. I can provide those quotes if need be as well.

If need be? Oh, why, thank you.

No, I made it very clear that "face" is one of the most retarded concepts I've ever heard and leads to the most ridiculous behavior, and I'm not apologizing. You think the store manager in that example did the right thing?

It's relevant here because forcing tea ceremonies and public kowtowing is part of saving face.

In any case, I'm talking about specific aspects of a culture, not globally disparaging anything.

It is pointed out that the base opinion in the statement is perfectly valid but the method was bordering on being demeaning of a specific culture.

So, you agree but your conclusion is false, and your accusation went from "borderline" to a full blown charge.

I agree, I would just say 2 things. First, I will admit to being anal retentive when it comes to the specific wording of posts. The basis of my interactions for 12 hours a day is recording what people say and then using those words to either assist them or charge them and it's something I don't have an easy time shutting off as my wife often reminds me.

You'd think with all that training you'd be a little better with accuracy and not bringing up b.s. charges, but I guess that's your job. Gotta make that quota, and we can tell, you obviously can't shut it off here.

Finally, about two pages (or more) that a number of us responded to could have been avoided by one simple statement...

"Okay using a belittling term to describe a cultural tradition was a bit off. I simply believe that someone who claims to be worthy of respect in a learned skill needs to earn that respect."

I don't think it was a bit off. I think it was right on. It's both silly and destructive.

Or

"Okay maybe it makes sense in a school that exists in that culture but is that cultural tradition really relevant in a school in Munich, Paris, London or New York?"

It is equally silly and destructive in Hong Kong or Mainland China.

 

[guy b]

It would be great if people wouldn't try to police behaviour on the forum, especially when not very good at it. Tends to ruin discussions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A few things,. The following taken from your quote.

First your "tradition" is about targeting a specific person and not an entire culture. An example of this in another context is you can call a black man convicted of a crime a criminal BUT to call all black people criminals would be bigotry in action.

Second it is, according to your quote, often about bonding which implicitly means people trying to come together for a positive end and that simply mutual acceptance between the individuals in question.

These alone change the context a lot but finally when you are purposefully performing an admittedly anti-social act against another it isn't wrong to call them out on it vs demeaning something that isnt inherently antisocial simply because you don't agree with it.

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Oh, crap. You said "context"!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, I made it very clear that "face" is one of the most retarded concepts I've ever heard and leads to the most ridiculous behavior, and I'm not apologizing. You think the store manager in that example did the right thing?

Actually, the concept is sound, and is part of effective leadership and/or negotiation in many cultures. The example you gave is one of it being applied ridiculously badly.

 

[Juany118]

Actually, the concept is sound, and is part of effective leadership and/or negotiation in many cultures. The example you gave is one of it being applied ridiculously badly.

Exactly. In the west we use multiple terms to describe what the Chinese call "face". In the west we associate "face" with only pride and things that begin with "self...", however in many eastern cultures, including China, it encompasses; not only self-respect, personal pride, prestige, and social standing, but honor, the respect others hold for you, the expectations of others, how your moral character is viewed and more. In essence "face" is how those around you perceive you in almost every way, not just how you view yourself, we simply use multiple terms to explain it in the west.

The problem is, in either culture, as often happens with people, sometimes people are selfish and only focus on the parts of "face" that focus on the "self..." bit. However those outliers can't be used to indict an entire system.

 

[BigMotor]

It is a human failing, and it is all over the World and in every facet of living: someone always wants to be superior and someone want to be pre-eminent.

What is not everywhere is: who is it that will teach what they know? And who will cease arguing points that are as fine as dust? And who will submit themselves to valid criticism, and correct themselves?

Now there friends is the truly superior man and fighter, the one that will humble himself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly. In the west we use multiple terms to describe what the Chinese call "face". In the west we associate "face" with only pride and things that begin with "self...", however in many eastern cultures, including China, it encompasses; not only self-respect, personal pride, prestige, and social standing, but honor, the respect others hold for you, the expectations of others, how your moral character is viewed and more. In essence "face" is how those around you perceive you in almost every way, not just how you view yourself, we simply use multiple terms to explain it in the west.

The problem is, in either culture, as often happens with people, sometimes people are selfish and only focus on the parts of "face" that focus on the "self..." bit. However those outliers can't be used to indict an entire system.

Agreed.

For others reading this, my point about "saving face" existing elsewhere, think of a negotiation, for instance. If one party comes into negotiations with a lot of passion (which they have expressed to others), they are unlikely to accept much compromise. If they are given something they can show as a "win" from the negotiations, they are much more likely to accept some compromise. That's the same concept as "saving face." People who are embarrassed tend to become unyielding and angry. If you let them recover their dignity ("save face"), they are much easier to work with.

The same goes for when someone makes an error, or need to learn something new, and so many other situations.

 

[guy b]

People who are embarrassed tend to become unyielding and angry. If you let them recover their dignity ("save face"), they are much easier to work with.

The same goes when someone needs to learn something new.

Ironically very appropriate to some members of this forum. Recent events allowed some face saving and did defuse some tension.

 

[geezer]

Ironically very appropriate to some members of this forum. Recent events allowed some face saving and did defuse some tension.

Probably a good idea to keep this in mind in future discussions. It definitely makes for more pleasant and productive discussions.

 

[guy b]

Probably a good idea to keep this in mind in future discussions. It definitely makes for more pleasant and productive discussions.

I guess where it becomes difficult is when people require the face save be perpetuated, rather than just feeling relieved and forgetting about it, or even (if they can get it together enough) saying thanks in a low key way.

 

[anerlich]

This is very true. I don't have a personal experience but my best friend was born in Hong Kong and her Grand Father was a CMA practitioner there until they emigrated in the 70's. When I first started studying MA years ago her Grand Father told me "if you look at Kung Fu schools and the students and Sifu are wearing "uniforms" that look like the clothes from a Wuxia movie, run away. We wore pants and t-shirts at school, MAYBE the Head of the School wore traditional clothing, but if he did it was because he grew up wearing that clothing, it has very little to do with Kung Fu."

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Yeah, well, in the 80s I trained at a school that had those Chinese jackets with the woven "frog" buttons that ripped if anyone grabbed them.

Plus the cloth slippers with plastic soles that were slippery as hell on polished wood floors and would stretch to the point they got so loose that you occasionally launched one across the room when attempting a kick.

Authentic? Maybe. Practical? Not in the slightest.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah, well, in the 80s I trained at a school that had those Chinese jackets with the woven "frog" buttons that ripped if anyone grabbed them.

Plus the cloth slippers with plastic soles that were slippery as hell on polished wood floors and would stretch to the point they got so loose that you occasionally launched one across the room when attempting a kick.

Authentic? Maybe. Practical? Not in the slightest.

I put the laugh because I pictured the slipper flying across the room.

 

[KPM]

I've done the slipper flying across the room!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've done the slipper flying across the room!

I've done that many times at home, with actual slippers. Took out a lamp that way once.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, well, in the 80s I trained at a school that had those Chinese jackets with the woven "frog" buttons that ripped if anyone grabbed them.

Plus the cloth slippers with plastic soles that were slippery as hell on polished wood floors and would stretch to the point they got so loose that you occasionally launched one across the room when attempting a kick.

Authentic? Maybe. Practical? Not in the slightest.

I'd always wondered about the durability of that costume. The Japanese dogi serves well mostly because of its durabilility (even a fairly light Karate gi will hold up for a while in standing grappling). How much time did you have to spend repairing those things?

 

[anerlich]

Not a lot because the style didn't have a lot of grabbing. Most tears were accidental.

Japanese gis were built with a purpose in mind. AFAIK the Chinese jacket was just regular street wear.

 

[Juany118]

I'd always wondered about the durability of that costume. The Japanese dogi serves well mostly because of its durabilility (even a fairly light Karate gi will hold up for a while in standing grappling). How much time did you have to spend repairing those things?

@anerlich has it right imo. In my experience CMA grappling/Chin Na is largely limited to taking control of the body itself. The idea of grabbing clothing and using it for leverage etc. really isn't there so the idea of clothing designed to be grabbed never really cane up.