The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[JowGaWolf]

But, the opponent can step when you step—unless you prevent/limit that (another point I tried to make).

I'm not sure. You would have to give me a direction that my opponent will step in so that I can see if there is a high chance or low chance. From what I know of the technique he will not see me step nor will he beconerned with it. Jow Ga footwork is said to be like "Rat step"

I guess the question is. Have you ever watched someone step as you dendritic against a punch to your head. If the answer is no then it will most likely be the same answer for this punch as well.

 

[Buka]

Hitting with the last three knuckles came from Boxing. Boxers have their hands wrapped, taped and covered with gloves. Gloves were invented to protect the hands from breaking, not to protect the head.

Hitting with the three smaller knuckles in a barehanded fight results in what used to be called a “boxer’s fracture” in E.Rs back in the day. I don’t know if that term is used any more.

Punch any way you prefer. Experience is a great teacher. But sometimes it hurts or breaks the hand.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hitting with the last three knuckles came from Boxing. Boxers have their hands wrapped, taped and covered with gloves. Gloves were invented to protect the hands from breaking, not to protect the head.

Hitting with the three smaller knuckles in a barehanded fight results in what used to be called a “boxer’s fracture” in E.Rs back in the day. I don’t know if that term is used any more.

Punch any way you prefer. Experience is a great teacher. But sometimes it hurts or breaks the hand.

It is. I have often told people with them that one thing I know about them is that they don't know how to punch.

 

[marvin8]

Which was that "Donaire link" again? want to make sure i got it.

My gif refused to connect for some reason.

Do you mean that main impact (where the peak force is) is on the two knuckles, and they as he follows through and the head deflects he slides over the rest of the knuckles (thus with less force) but adding to the impulse as he follows through?

On contact, I believe more like what Hackleman says "force is evenly spread among the whole fist." The follow through just shows the trajectory of the punch, like a golf swing. At 4:05, Shane (a youtuber) shows turning the hook over and making contact with the back of the knuckles, that's not how Donaire does it.

When I throw this punch to the ribs I adust the fist angle to try to align the bone linkage curvator to the trajectory, as the strike is not perfectly straight, the optimal bone alignment isn't straight?

If I wanted to make a pure straight punch, the three knuckles is likely the only choice, is that perhaps their point? IF so I get it.

But this is why I don't think of such a strike as perfectlyt straight, at least not when using the two knuckles it's like a hybrid strike? The question is then, to throw a straight punch with the three knuckels or a hybrid punch (curved straight) with the two knuckles?

Does this make sense or am I still missing something?

I believe they are saying whether you throw round or straight punches, keep your wrist stable and straight (power line). What knuckles you end up making contact with depends on how much you transfer your weight, rotate, position, etc. An overhand punch is more considered a looping or round punch to go around the guard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is. I have often told people with them that one thing I know about them is that they don't know how to punch.

Sounds like you..lol

 

[marvin8]

Hitting with the last three knuckles came from Boxing. Boxers have their hands wrapped, taped and covered with gloves. Gloves were invented to protect the hands from breaking, not to protect the head.

As mentioned, it also came from Wing Chun and bare knuckle boxing (e.g., champion Lorenzo Hunt).

Hitting with the three smaller knuckles in a barehanded fight results in what used to be called a “boxer’s fracture” in E.Rs back in the day. I don’t know if that term is used any more.

Punch any way you prefer. Experience is a great teacher. But sometimes it hurts or breaks the hand.

"Boxer's fracture" and keeping the wrist "stable and straight" was covered in the posted videos.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sounds like you..lol

Blunt and to the point. Yup.

 

[marvin8]

I'm not sure. You would have to give me a direction that my opponent will step in so that I can see if there is a high chance or low chance. From what I know of the technique he will not see me step nor will he beconerned with it. Jow Ga footwork is said to be like "Rat step"

The opponent will react by stepping where it's safe or advantageous, as you step. Yes like I posted "unless you prevent/limit that (another point I tried to make)." Which Jow Ga technique won't be seen?

I guess the question is. Have you ever watched someone step as you dendritic against a punch to your head. If the answer is no then it will most likely be the same answer for this punch as well.

I don't understand your sentence. However, I have seen people transfer their weight or step and attack (e.g., Donaire), when their opponent steps to throw a punch to their head.

From open stance, white shirt (southpaw) is in guard position not double weighted. His opponent controls the lead hand and throws a punch. White shirt pull-counters.

 

[Fungus]

It is. I have often told people with them that one thing I know about them is that they don't know how to punch.

Look at this clip from earlier...

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

What's up with the thumb sticking right out? Only explanation I can think of is a habit from wearing bloxing gloves in which forming a proper fist isn't possible.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What's up with the thumb sticking right out? Only explanation I can think of is a habit from wearing bloxing gloves in which forming a proper fist isn't possible.

I think you're likely correct. Either that, or he's just making a sloppy fist because his hand is relaxed and not really making impact. Certainly, punching like that is begging for injuries.

 

[Fungus]

My gif refused to connect for some reason.

On contact, I believe more like what Hackleman says "force is evenly spread among the whole fist."

I suspect this may be logical if you do not care as much of peak force, and care mainly about the total impulse/energy.

When you wear a boxing glove, the peak force is lost anyway, but if you put your body begind and "follow through" like a boxer does, you still get a high impulse/energy.

Ie. it would be impossible to break a tile with boxing gloves, not because the impulse/energy isn't there, but because the peak force is gone.

And if the peak force is gone, the risk of breaking the smaller bones is gone, and I think the bigger problem with putting your body weight behind a follow through is hurting your wrist?

So I am inclined to think think a sum up would be that the 3 knuckle punch would maybe be a littler safer for your wrist/arm, but risky for your hand at peak force. But there IS a low peak force inside a boxing glove! But the more you "follow through" ie the longer the displacement of the impact, the more chance is there for your wrist to change angle. So maybe the risk for a boxer is more the wrist. So maybe that explains a "boxers preference"?

But I do not quite understand the bare knuckle boxers doing this. Would wrist damage still be more common than boxers fracture in this case? I admit that the balancing required for the 2 knuckle requires a bit more focus than balancing a 3 knuckle strike.

Are we more worried about damaging our wrist, or our knuckles?

Shane (a youtuber) shows turning the hook over and making contact with the back of the knuckles, that's not how Donaire does it.

I agree, but I would probably wnat to do it like shane, at least without big gloves.

I have no experience with big gloves. I tried them on, but the fact that I can't form a fist in them, makes me not want to use it even for heavy bag cardio training.

 

[marvin8]

Look at this clip from earlier...

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

What's up with the thumb sticking right out? Only explanation I can think of is a habit from wearing bloxing gloves in which forming a proper fist isn't possible.

It's a demo, but boxers do train to have relaxed hands. May be the same reason you mentioned on "exaggerate."

From the eperspective of a beginner rank in our kyokushin club, where we have separate fighting classes, we are explained that kihon forms are often supposed to have some optimal balance, or power, or sometimes simply having the purpose to "exaggerate" the actual movements in a fight. So training using exaggerated motions, makes the shortcuts more of a breeze.

Noone is given the illusion that this is how you actually fight, this refers both to stances and hikite position.

The exaggerated techiques may be optimally stronge and stable, but are too slow to work in a fight. In fighting it's compromise with power/stabilit and SPEED. The very lower stances are also not used in fighting except following a single strike or so, we are told it's a way to train your legs and balance to be stronger.

We are also taught that kata is basically just a way to train kihon techniques, and memorize (exaggerated) combinations on your own when you have no partner. The real thing is what you do in free fighting, and there you get to train also maintaining distance and timing (when at from what distance to attach), which seems impossible to learn from just kata?

We are also told that the habit of hikite pullback, translates into fighting so that you should always pullback your hands and limbs to fighting and guard position asap (but not to the kihon-position). Not let the limbs hang out there after impact. Exceptions would be if you invest in a strike-through or kick-trough attack with maxium force. But that is always more risk of getting limbs caught.

This is how I understand it so far. I enjoy the bunkai classes, the multiple interpretations doesn't bother me, it just makes is more fun.

 

[marvin8]

But I do not quite understand the bare knuckle boxers doing this. Would wrist damage still be more common than boxers fracture in this case? I admit that the balancing required for the 2 knuckle requires a bit more focus than balancing a 3 knuckle strike.

Are we more worried about damaging our wrist, or our knuckles?

Not following your logic. Forget about gloves for a moment (Wing Chun, BKB, etc. do not use gloves). Per the videos (including yours), first keep your wrist stable and straight on impact, regardless of what knuckles you use. Spreading the impact over 4 knuckles will have less potential fractures than forcing to use only 2 knuckles with a bent wrist. Incorrect punching technique can cause damage. Again in karate, your wrist may be straight and stable (good) when making contact with the first two knuckles—because you are stepping to move your head, not "over rotating" or transferring as much weight into the punch, etc.

I agree, but I would probably wnat to do it like shane, at least without big gloves.

At least 2 videos explained you're more susceptible to fractures from impacting your thumb and other knuckles from that angle. Hunt (BKB champion) is teaching with the vertical fist. You can do your own research. Both methods may be viable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Blunt and to the point. Yup.

Lol my wife is like that. I always joke that a person can't be friends with her or be married to her unless they have high self esteem. People like you two come with a manual that says. Filtered version not available. There is also a warning label that's say. Not recommended for use by those with soft feelings or those who care what others think. please wear with protective gear as hurt feels may occur lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have no experience with big gloves. I tried them on, but the fact that I can't form a fist in them, makes me not want to use it even for heavy bag cardio training.

You just have to put more effort to maintain your fist structure. I use the big gloves without wraps all thee time but zi have actively think of fist structure. One time I miscalculated a rotation on my punch which made me use my thumb knuckle as the striking point. I would have broken my thumb if I wasn't focused on maintaining my fist structure. I'm not conditioned to strike with my thumb like thst. It hurt but it didn't break. I knew right away that it could have been worse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which Jow Ga technique won't be seen?

The wheel punch. It has a lot of variation and uses hidden strikes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't understand your sentence. However, I have seen people transfer their weight or step and attack (e.g., Donaire), when their opponent steps to throw a punch to their head.

When you say this, think of which punch your are referring to? Jow Ga long fist? Lead arm jab into a vertical backfist into a lead arm uppercut. Or maybe one of the wheel punches . Vertical rising back step odd center followed by long hook?

They eyes will first detect the largest movement and not the actual step. Larger movement hides the smaller one. This includes the step and the incoming step.

Maybe @Tony Dismukes can remember if is sparring partner was watching his fist or his step. Maybe he took note of it? He used one wheel punch that I know of. To what extent that he used it!, I don't know

When opponent's notice stepping they will manage distance. If they don't notice it then they will get caught off guard.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The wheel punch.

This remind me a question that I like to ask. Does Karate or TKD have

- hook punch,
- uppercut,
- overhand?

I have not seen those 3 in their forms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because as the guy in your video says, "You want your wrist as stable and straight as possible with all those bones aligned in the best straight line." If you hit with the "stronger knuckles," you have to bend your wrist when turning over the jab to the face or chest.

Hunt demos the turning over the jab as a defensive move. As Hunt's student throws the jab, he turns his front foot and shifts his weight to the back foot while turning over the jab, which brings the front shoulder up protecting the chin. Hitting with the bottom three or the middle knuckle and the next lower knuckle (not pinky) helps keep the wrist more "stable and straight."

That extreme defense will set up your offense, turning over the jab to turning over the right cross. Turning punches over in training can be used to exaggerate and develop full power, as the Winklejohn video showed too. So when someone says “CMA has rotation or spirals and boxing does not,” they likely don’t know what they’re talking about. Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

Your gif. I took a look at it again to explain the approach Jow Ga wheel punch would try to trigger his jab with the first wheel punch. By default always deal with the lead hand. The only risk is fir my action to be faster than the jab or if I don't trigger the punch which means I get punched in the face. To minimize this I'll have force my opponent to make a. I will aim the first punch at his head. He will will either try to evade, cover and block, punch, or let the punch hit him. From there I can narrow it down to 2 options. Letting the punch hit him or tring to punch me is idea so there's no need to plan for that. Evade is easy I just need to see where he evades to and hit him with the trailing wheel punch. cover and Blick may mean that ai need to hit around the guard or below it. If my first wheel punch is off then I need to reset. If it's late then to need to continue the technique. Be it two wheel punches or one that lead hand can't roam free. Past students knew I get irritated about not dealing with the lead hand of an opponent.

 

[marvin8]

Your gif. I took a look at it again to explain the approach Jow Ga wheel punch would try to trigger his jab with the first wheel punch. By default always deal with the lead hand. The only risk is fir my action to be faster than the jab or if I don't trigger the punch which means I get punched in the face. To minimize this I'll have force my opponent to make a. I will aim the first punch at his head. He will will either try to evade, cover and block, punch, or let the punch hit him. From there I can narrow it down to 2 options. Letting the punch hit him or tring to punch me is idea so there's no need to plan for that. Evade is easy I just need to see where he evades to and hit him with the trailing wheel punch. cover and Blick may mean that ai need to hit around the guard or below it. If my first wheel punch is off then I need to reset. If it's late then to need to continue the technique. Be it two wheel punches or one that lead hand can't roam free. Past students knew I get irritated about not dealing with the lead hand of an opponent.

No, you make the first step or are lured to. That's the discussion. In the Hunt demo, his student is standing one step out of range. Hunt has to step to attack him. Hunt's initial attack and any plans were intercepted by his student's punch to the shoulder. I have the course and gave Hunt's explanation of the demo. Their demo was okay. However, Donaire's KO was real and showed more skill.