Kicking moveset for poor internal hip rotation and lowback issues

[Fungus]

I found that one of the challenges is to find out my own optimal fighting style and strategy that suits my physiology and limitations. I am curious how others solve the same problem?

I have
- low back issues with a nerve jam, and poor flexbility for high kicks
- quite good external hip rotation, but at the expenseve of poor internal hip rotation - this is confirmed by physioterapeut test

Means I have problems with jodan kicks, an in particular mawashi geri.
Mawashi geri in general is also tricky, but gedan and low chudan is doable.
Same issue with ushiro mawashi.

I thought for a long time i was doing it wrong, but not I realized, that I simply can't do it, due ot constraints of hip mobility (and in part due to low flexibility).
Flexibility cna be trained, but I thik hip mobility is more about innate anatomy.

Combination of high kicks and inernal rotation I just can't do, and I probably need to live it it.
Due to my hip bias, I find it much more natural for me todo uchi mawashi geri, or spinning crescent kick, or soto gedan or chudan kakato geri also suits my hips.

So my best chance to pull off a head kick with be either tobi geri front kick, uchi mawashi or spinning uschi mawashi (Iove that kick).

In particular do i windoer about power generation of spinning uchi mawashi geri vs ushiro mawashi. It would first of all be haisoku vs heel. Clearly the heel would be better, but which one would you say is faster, and less telegraphing? for chudan I have good enough external hip rotation to do this kcik not as a keage but more asa 45 upwards shin kick. So it is a pretty decent liver kick.

Anyone in the same situation, what do you focus on? I'm doing kyokushin, and is far from my 20s or even 30s or even 40s But this is fun and I want to develop based on my limitations.

Curious to learn about how others deal with this!!

 

[Gyakuto]

I found that one of the challenges is to find out my own optimal fighting style and strategy that suits my physiology and limitations. I am curious how others solve the same problem?

Physiology is ‘the mechanisms by which the body function’ such as the renin-angiotensin mechanism or sinoatrial node regulation of heart rate. You mean ‘anatomy’ which is to do with the architecture of the body.

Flexibility cna be trained, but I thik hip mobility is more about innate anatomy.

To an extent. Some people have a deep hip socket (acetabulum) and short femoral neck so when they try and do the box splits femoral neck can only move as far as the rim of the acetabulum allows: imagine a short piece of dowel trying to pivot around in a narrow, tall glass . Others have a shallower acetabulum with a wide aperture can move their femurs much wider and may even do the box splits : think of the dowel pivoting in a breakfast bowl!

Combination of high kicks and inernal rotation I just can't do, and I probably need to live it it.

I think with daily internal rotation stretches for several months, you might gain a surprising increase in your hip mobility! I do the the 90-90 stretch daily plus crouch in the Asian squat with great effect!

Have a go and ameliorate your limitations!

 

[drop bear]

Thankfully you have a style that let's you leg kick.

Mow their calf to death.

Joe rogan in a great example of old man kicking.

 

[Fungus]

Physiology is ‘the mechanisms by which the body function’ such as the renin-angiotensin mechanism or sinoatrial node regulation of heart rate. You mean ‘anatomy’ which is to do with the architecture of the body.

To an extent. Some people have a deep hip socket (acetabulum) and short femoral neck so when they try and do the box splits femoral neck can only move as far as the rim of the acetabulum allows: imagine a short piece of dowel trying to pivot around in a narrow, tall glass . Others have a shallower acetabulum with a wide aperture can move their femurs much wider and may even do the box splits : think of the dowel pivoting in a breakfast bowl!


I think with daily internal rotation stretches for several months, you might gain a surprising increase in your hip mobility! I do the the 90-90 stretch daily plus crouch in the Asian squat with great effect!

Have a go and ameliorate your limitations!

Thanks. Yes, I try to improve my flexbility, I do daily stretches of various kinds, and it does help alot!
But but the main part of my question was kind of, once you improve as far as it goes for someone that is not naturally flexible, what are the the most effective kicks for fighting that are more natural.

I've seen group studies suggesting that the different external - internal rotation are often more constant, but the offset may vary. So my hip mobility measured from external - internal angles are actually normal, but they are "shifted" towards the external side by an angle probably due to my anatomy. So any kicks that requires external hip flexbility are "natural" to me, so I also want to built on my natural strenghts to compesate for my weaknesses.

For the same reason I have the same issues with a proper sanchin dachi, when I do it, my foot angles aren't according to the ideal kihon forms. If I "force myself" to the "ideal angles", I end up in a stance with poor stability, which is against the philosophy of the stance.

I found similar deviations with my punches, especially my left, due to what angles my fingers can form to my fist when closed. When do do kihon or kata, none of this matters, but aaginst a punching bag or in fightinhg I've felt forces to tweak the tecniquies slightly to allow maximum force and stabilty for myself. Such individual tweaking isn't taught in class, so it seems each single studenet has to figure this out on it's own.

I find myself doing kicks others rarely do in kumite, simply because it's the ones that come naturally.

Especially japanese karate (less so okinawan I think) focus alot on conformity to the basic kihon and standards, but I find that (a slight!) adaption to the individual seems necesseary? What do you think?
I guess the only people that might have thought alot about this, is those that are sufficiently deviate from normal anatomy somewhere. Others may not think of it as much?

 

[Fungus]

Thankfully you have a style that let's you leg kick.

Mow their calf to death.

Joe rogan in a great example of old man kicking.

Yes, he likes the ushiro geri, and it's one of my favourites as well which my instructors also told me I do well for my rank. It's a kick that is easy for my hips which is the simple reason why I prefer it and it's by margin my most powerful kick for me.

 

[Gyakuto]

Thanks. Yes, I try to improve my flexbility, I do daily stretches of various kinds, and it does help alot!
But but the main part of my question was kind of, once you improve as far as it goes for someone that is not naturally flexible, what are the the most effective kicks for fighting that are more natural.

I see! I believe many traditional Okinawan Karate schools kick no higher than the waist (mainly to the thighs/knees). But they tend to be mawashigeri and so require internal rotation of the femur. What about the devastating Sunegeri?

I've seen group studies suggesting that the different external - internal rotation are often more constant, but the offset may vary. So my hip mobility measured from external - internal angles are actually normal, but they are "shifted" towards the external side by an angle probably due to my anatomy. So any kicks that requires external hip flexbility are "natural" to me, so I also want to built on my natural strenghts to compesate for my weaknesses.

Which karate kicks utilise external rotation? I can only think of reverse crescent kick which are more (devastatingly) perfected by Korean martial arts from what I’ve seen.

For the same reason I have the same issues with a proper sanchin dachi, when I do it, my foot angles aren't according to the ideal kihon forms. If I "force myself" to the "ideal angles", I end up in a stance with poor stability, which is against the philosophy of the stance.

I‘ve never considered this! Interesting.

I found similar deviations with my punches, especially my left, due to what angles my fingers can form to my fist when closed.

Would you elaborate on this? I’m not sure I understand.

. Such individual tweaking isn't taught in class, so it seems each single studenet has to figure this out on it's own.

This tends to be the modus operandi in Japanese martial arts, I’m afraid. It’s considered ‘part of the process’.

I find myself doing kicks others rarely do in kumite, simply because it's the ones that come naturally.

Such as? I once saw a noted Shotokan practitioner (Terry O’Neil) leap forward, doing a mid air forward somersault and swinging a kakato geri down into the stomach of his opponent (Steve Cattle, I think)…in the days competitions were held on wooden floors. It was truly astonishing!

Especially japanese karate (less so okinawan I think) focus alot on conformity to the basic kihon and standards, but I find that (a slight!) adaption to the individual seems necesseary? What do you think?

Yes I think there has to be a range of variation of what is acceptable to account for people’s differing anatomy. But the Japanese do like their conformity, so it’ll have limits!

I guess the only people that might have thought alot about this, is those that are sufficiently deviate from normal anatomy somewhere. Others may not think of it as much?

I’m sure we all have anatomical differences that make the accepted performance difficult to accomplish. Commonly, people have difficulty to form a 90 degree angle between knuckles and fingers (metacarpals and proximal phalanges) when making a fist (the ideal). Pulling their toes back sufficiently to kick with the ball of the foot. But with practise, stretching or altering striking angles slightly, they can be overcome.

 

[Fungus]

I see! I believe many traditional Okinawan Karate schools kick no higher than the waist (mainly to the thighs/knees). But they tend to be mawashigeri and so require internal rotation of the femur. What about the devastating Sunegeri?

Then okinawan styles would suit me well in that sense.

I am fine with mawashi geri is as long as it's liver or lower height. But I struggle with doing it fast, especially when swapping back and forth between the legs due to nerve jams in the legs. But this is unrelated to the limited hip mobility, and (I hope) it's temporary.

I see the term sunegeri used for different kicks, sometimes mawashi geri with the shin rather than haisoku, then yes that works. It's the normal low kick in my style. We avoid kicking with the foot to avoid hitting a knee or elbow.

Also there is the oblique or "stomp" kick to the legs, this is allowed in full contact competitions but not recommended in normal sparring as the risk of serious knee damage is very high. If we use it, it is not full furce. But for self defence it would be extremely powerful and it suits my hips perfect.

Which karate kicks utilise external rotation? I can only think of reverse crescent kick which are more (devastatingly) perfected by Korean martial arts from what I’ve seen.

Such as? ....

What I had in mind are what you mention, the inside crescent kick or reverse spinning crescent kick. This is also for me faster, than ushiro mawashi, and easy todo also at close range. I do it also with the shin, as a liver kick at close range with good power, this is easy with good exterior hip rotation so your knee is hitting upwards at say 45 degrees. Without that angle you would damage the knees if kicking hard. I practice this on the heavy bag and i like the kick, but struggle with doing it in sparring without loosing balance. If your opponent is backing down, it's perfect, but if they push you easily fall.

But the other kick I hade in mind, is like a hybrid of the outside crescent kick and a 45 degree version of oroshi kakato geri, it can hit either the thighs or with good external rotation I can hit the kidney area except your likely get the leg caught. This is a pretty hard kick, that can be done at punshing range by hooking the leg at the end. But it's a bit too hard for sparring you restrain the force, as it's comparable to a hard kidney hook. I practice this on the heavy back as well. Without good external rotation you tend to have your knees up and hit with teisoku, which limits the power. Beeing able to do with kick with 45 downward angle and the heel makes it powerful.

Those two kicks are the "easiest" once for me, along with the straight kicks such as ushiro geri.

Would you elaborate on this? I’m not sure I understand.

I’m sure we all have anatomical differences that make the accepted performance difficult to accomplish. Commonly, people have difficulty to form a 90 degree angle between knuckles and fingers (metacarpals and proximal phalanges) when making a fist (the ideal). Pulling their toes back sufficiently to kick with the ball of the foot. But with practise, stretching or altering striking angles slightly, they can be overcome.

This is exactly the problem I have! But more so on my left hand. But the solution is to make a variation of the the straight punch where you raise the arm an hit a little bit downwards, just to make sure the knuckels hit the targer before the fingers do, and I have to tilt the upperbody slightl as well. But this is for fightint of heavy back. For kata or kihon you never hit anything, so it's not a problem.

This took me a year to figure out and some left arm pain, for a long time I though my brain simply didn't have the same fine motorics to control my left punch, until I realized that I should NOT mirror the tecniquies from my right, to the left, because the issue is more pronounce on the left. The instructor advice was originally just to practive pushups on seiken etc. But I finally realize this myself, and now it works alot better. So from now on I realize that the "nominal kihon" techniques must be adaptet to yourself to be useful with maximum power, and not just for show.

I once saw a noted Shotokan practitioner (Terry O’Neil) leap forward, doing a mid air forward somersault and swinging a kakato geri down into the stomach of his opponent (Steve Cattle, I think)…in the days competitions were held on wooden floors. It was truly astonishing!

Sounds like this? Common spectacular "going all in" KO kick in kyokushin tournaments - do mawashi kaiten geri.

I certainly can't do this one, I thikn this is quite advanced and not something for a non-acrobatic beginner like myself.

Yes I think there has to be a range of variation of what is acceptable to account for people’s differing anatomy. But the Japanese do like their conformity, so it’ll have limits!

Fortunately in the fighting class, we are not careing about forms, like in other styles, where correct form is required. In kyokushin the philosophy is more that if it the technique makes your opponent go down in pain, it is good, otherwise not. So I can personalize the techniques to suit myself, as long as they work, noone will complain on this in fighting. This is why I enjoy the fighting classed more than the more "strict" kihon and kata classes, where I struggle more conforming to the ideals, feeling a bit stupid just because my hips will not rotate enough

 

[Gyakuto]

Well it sounds like you have found ‘work arounds’ that suit your limitations. Best of luck.

 

[Fungus]

Well it sounds like you have found ‘work arounds’ that suit your limitations. Best of luck.

Thanks, but I have a loong way to go, a big part is indeed improving my limitations, but I think many must face the same issue of coming to realize that you need to adapt MA to yourself, rather than the other way around - or perhaps better put find your own fighting style, but with inspiration of the existing typical styles. Which is the essence also fo Bruce Lees Jet kun doo method to personlalize your own style.

(Also from any areas of interest, such as education etc, we may do martial arts for different reasons.
My goel is not to achieve a particular belt or rank, or degree, nor to win competition. My personal goal is to acheive an given my limitations, and optimal degree of insight and self control of my own body and reflexes in any fighting or combat scenario. This is the challenge but sparring is the best way to measure your own progress.

The reason I enjoy kyokushin is that it's more realistic in the sense that it's full contact, you get scores for the effect and not just for a symbolic hit without power, what I do not like is that we don't train punches to the head in sparring, as I see the habits of "sporta full contact" is sometimes that when you think you are safe from head kicks, you don't have a face guard for punches. Intuitively, it feels unnnatural, to stay at close range and just do body punches, and try to find an opportunit for a head kick, when my head only sees the opportunity to strike the head. OTOH, training regular punhces to the head, isn't a good think. I use my brain for other things than fighting as well, so the balance of kyokushin is between health and realistic sparring.

Big boxing gloves are not realistic either, you are unlikely to face a real fight with boxing gloves. And you can block but simply holding them up like two blobs. doign the same with bare knuckles and you would face knuckle strikes hitting fragile parts of your blocking hand, metacarpals? So that sort of "blocking" using in boxing wouldn't work for bare knuckle I think. )

 

[Gyakuto]

Thanks, but I have a loong way to go, a big part is indeed improving my limitations, but I think many must face the same issue of coming to realize that you need to adapt MA to yourself, rather than the other way around - or perhaps better put find your own fighting style, but with inspiration of the existing typical styles. Which is the essence also fo Bruce Lees Jet kun doo method to personlalize your own style.

Caution must be taken to avoid ‘smearing the parameters’ of the art you are modifying to your own limitations such that it no longer is that art!

The reason I enjoy kyokushin is that it's more realistic in the sense that it's full contact, you get scores for the effect and not just for a symbolic hit without power,

The idea is that of ‘ sundome‘ - aiming just short (one ‘sun’ = 3.03cm) of the target rather than ‘without power’. A minor readjustment would allow you to completely remove one’s opponents head 😄

what I do not like is that we don't train punches to the head in sparring, as I see the habits of "sporta full contact" is sometimes that when you think you are safe from head kicks, you don't have a face guard for punches.

So it’s not realistic at all! You won’t learn how to realistically defend yourself from head punches…that is, 94.6% of all offensive attacks.

Intuitively, it feels unnnatural, to stay at close range and just do body punches, and try to find an opportunit for a head kick, when my head only sees the opportunity to strike the head.

I went to a Goju Ryu class where we ‘sparred’ from close range with body punches only and no head shots. It was a complete fiction and several times I reflexly shot punches to my opponents head, much to their bewilderment, and moved out of their range into one I instinctively found more advantageous.

What I’m saying is that ‘realism‘ is completely contextual, rather than an absolute.

OTOH, training regular punhces to the head, isn't a good think. I use my brain for other things than fighting as well, so the balance of kyokushin is between health and realistic sparring.

Hence ‘sundome’!

Be cognisant that you are training in a highly contrived art (like most of us) that you are having to contrive further due to your physical limitations. Do not fall into the delusion that you are protected from assault by your art any more than any other art would protect you. Just enjoy what you’re doing!

 

[Fungus]

So it’s not realistic at all! You won’t learn how to realistically defend yourself from head punches…that is, 94.6% of all offensive attacks.

Good point! Of course we do train it in predefined step sparring (without contact), but not in "free fighting"'

I guess though that I enjoy a bit of pain, so body punches and power kicks does a god job at that. So as to not get shocked by taking a blow and "stop fighting".

I SUPPOSE some kyokushin fighters MIGHT get a similar shock if getting a strike to the head. But then, conditioning the body is I think fine, but conditioning the head is questionable. Except the mental cognitioning to get use to someone slapping your face. For tjat we sometimes do pairwise exercise and slap each other in the face. but with open hand, just to get used to a "sting", that otherwise can get you out of mental balance.

 

[Fungus]

I went to a Goju Ryu class where we ‘sparred’ from close range with body punches only and no head shots. It was a complete fiction and several times I reflexly shot punches to my opponents head, much to their bewilderment, and moved out of their range into one I instinctively found more advantageous.

It happens by accident indeed. Last time I hit someone with a straight punch on the jaw, that was supposed to goto the chest. In return he gave me a spinning backfist to my chin. But it was fine. But accidents do happen.

 

[Fungus]

Caution must be taken to avoid ‘smearing the parameters’ of the art you are modifying to your own limitations such that it no longer is that art!

I might not put it to my instructors, but to be honest, I am not really a style-proponent. If what works for me ends up beeing a hybrid of styles that is fine with my personal goals. I take inspiration from other styles as well. I like the philosophy of the science basic techniques, rather than merely tradition. But somehow, when you join a local school to get instructorsn and sparring, you have only a few choices. In our club, we have many that has expereience in other MA as well, shotokan, taekwondo and buy thai, and boxing.

 

[Fungus]

The idea is that of ‘ sundome‘ - aiming just short (one ‘sun’ = 3.03cm) of the target rather than ‘without power’. A minor readjustment would allow you to completely remove one’s opponents head 😄

As distance management is one key issue in real fighting, don't you get into the habit of "wrong distance"? Just thikning loud here... I am too inexpereince to tell.

 

[Gyakuto]

I might not put it to my instructors, but to be honest, I am not really a style-proponent. If what works for me ends up beeing a hybrid of styles that is fine with my personal goals. I take inspiration from other styles as well. I like the philosophy of the science basic techniques, rather than merely tradition. But somehow, when you join a local school to get instructorsn and sparring, you have only a few choices. In our club, we have many that has expereience in other MA as well, shotokan, taekwondo and buy thai, and boxing.

Why don’t you try something different with a traditional legacy. Kick boxing, MMA perhaps?

 

[Gyakuto]

As distance management is one key issue in real fighting, don't you get into the habit of "wrong distance"? Just thikning loud here... I am too inexpereince to tell.

No! It’s not a passive process and takes more skill than just hitting a target. Just because you drive up to the speed limit it doesn’t mean you can’t drive beyond that speed.

 

[Fungus]

Why don’t you try something different with a traditional legacy. Kick boxing, MMA perhaps?

Main reason: I suspect it would imply regular head impacts or higher risk of injuries. So a balance.
If it wasn't for the higher risk of injury, MMA would be interesting. But I value my brain too much.

 

[Gyakuto]

Main reason: I suspect it would imply regular head impacts or higher risk of injuries. So a balance.
If it wasn't for the higher risk of injury, MMA would be interesting. But I value my brain too much.

As a (retired) neuroscientist, I think you're wise 😄 🧠🥊

 

[Fungus]

As a (retired) neuroscientist, I think you're wise 😄 🧠🥊

Hehe... I'm a physicist myself, and i surely rather break some ribs or a limb than accumulate brain damage. I'm also not a brawler type, I'm more of a thinker, and started with MA as I think the "system" is stimulating and interesting.

What I have considered (but that probably wont happen due to limited time, I have time to train twice a week atm) is to complement karate with some throws or grappling. As except for not allowing head punches, the other obvious non realistic thing is that in kyokushin, grappling or pushes aren't allowd. And at close range, that is guaranteed to happen in real fight.

When I was a kid I actually did a bit of greco-roman wrestling, I enjoyed some of the throwing but what I didn't like about that was that it was only about groundwork and throwing, based on arm and torso grappling, the more obvious things to use the legs to sweep or grab (like in judo) wasn't allowed.

So judo might be a complement or BJJ to karate. The founder of kyokushin Mas Oyama had also a 4 dan black belt in judo as a background. In some katas there are even remnants of throws, as is seen in some bunkai, but they arent practiced in the kihon or fighting. But at them moment, I am better of focusing my time on karate than splutting the little time i have on grappling arts, although I admit that something is missing when not allowto grapple, or not even allowed to push (like in close range, a typicla sumo push would do wonders and get your opponent on the back but we cant do)

 

[Holmejr]

I’m 68 years of age and I believe I move quite well for my age, but I simply do not move like a 20 year old. I’m one of two senior students at our school (I’m a senior senior student) and many of the far less experienced students are simply more agile than me. I do make up for much of my degrading physical abilities with good form, experience and sneakiness. I’m actually super satisfied with where I’m at and still believe I have much to learn and the ability to do so. My advice to you, is to train smartly and become very good at what you CAN do. Enjoy the journey.