The Jump Guard and self defense

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Hanzou, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;

    (warning: graphic stuff)






    When would be a good opportunity to use this technique for self defense? Obviously you're not going to want to use it in a multiple assailant situation, but if you're struggling with one assailant and you need to take them down quickly, it seems perfectly reasonable to go for the Jumping guard. Now clearly your guard game needs to be on point (unless you happen to break their leg), but from the guard you can set up all sort of breaks, chokes, sweeps, etc.
     
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  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    By using Chinese wrestling rule set, if you (general YOU) use "jump guard" or "pull guard" on your opponent, after the friendly sport match, there will be violent fist fight after that.

    From a wrestler point of view, when you use jump guard or pull guard, you are telling your opponent, "I don't know any throwing skill. But I know how to drag you down to the ground. What can you do about it?"

    IMO, both jump guard and pull guard can hurt the throwing art big time. Why should anybody want to learn how to throw his opponent over his head if he can just drag his opponent down?

    I have been dragged down by both jump guard and pull guard many times. When people did that to me, I always drop my forearm right on their throat. My counter always made my opponent very mad. But I could always said that was just an accident because I lose my balance (Actually I did that on purpose). After that nobody ever wanted to use those moves on me.

    Why do you want to give your opponent a chance to body slam you?



     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
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  3. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    I have to inquire more about that, i dont know a lot about Chinese grappling styles. Most likely outside scope of this thread though.
     
  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Well, if its an effective takedown, why should it not be used?

    Every takedown and throw has inherent risks. No biggie.
     
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  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    First video.
    If you were in a fight then things would have gone very lucky if you were able to break the leg like that. The first videos reminds me of lessons that I've learned from doing tons of stance training. Always bend the knees. The reason I say I learned it in stance training is because stance training made it a habit for me to have my knees bent. In short. Stance training says bend knees. If he had knee bent, then it would have injured the guy jumping guard. A solid horse stance would have opened the opportunity to smash his opponent on his knee and would have prevented the top heavy lean caused by standing up too straight.

    If you look at the injured participant, you can see that he locked his knees multiple times before accident. Here's the count of his locked knee habit.
    @ 0:01
    @ 0:05 twice at @ 0:05. First single leg and then both legs with locked knee.
    @ 0:06 again both knees lock.
    @ 0:10 both knees lock
    @ 0:14 instead of sitting he locks both of his knees again. Resulting in the break

    Once he felt that he was in trouble, he should have either started to sit into a stance or smash down on his opponent by giving up his stance. Locked knees are a Sin and will get you in all sorts of trouble.


    Second Video:
    The Second video was a little better. In that the woman in white was already in a good position to be in a horse stance. However, her horse stance was one knee bent and the other straight. It was as if she tried to back away while in horse by pushing off on her right leg instead of staying in the stance. Pushing off on her right leg is what made that leg vulnerable.

    Third Video
    Horse stance structure is broken. I can't tell what's going on with the feet positioning but it looks like the structure on the left is broken first making the right vulnerable. When training horse stance many are taught to push outward in the same direction that the knee gave out. Being that his left foot structure was not stable, there was probably very little that he could have done, assuming that he was actually trying to get into a horse stance and not trying to do something else. CMA guys love their stances, except for Kung Fu Wang. lol.
     
  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    In sports BJJ and in other forms of grappling sports, this is illegal. According to the Gracies there is a way to do it that prevents from being slammed, but it just seems like the risk is greater than the reward especially if someone reads what you are trying to do. Size and strength also make a difference. Not everyone has the leg strength or the back strength to counter it.

    As you can see in the video below: Mess up the technique and fail to cause an incorrect lift, and you'll pay for that mistake with an unpleasant meeting with the ground.


    Correct. I make mistakes so I can only afford the risks that will allow me to walk away lol. Even with my striking. If the risk of failing = me going to bed early on a gym mat. Then I won't take it. The risk is going to be different depending on the skill level of both fighters. I may take a risk with a beginner or intermediate that I wouldn't take with a high skilled striker. There some risks I'll take with lower skill grapplers that I would never take against someone of a higher skilled level.
     
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  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Interesting analysis.

    Here's some more (again, graphic video):





    Gruesome Knee Injury Caused By Jumping Guard In A BJJ Tournament

    So you think someone could easily avoid this type of break if they've never trained how to counter it? Keep in mind, there's only three ways this can go: Into a Bjj exponent's guard, you somehow catching the Bjjer and being able to slam them, or if you're standing wrong when its pulled your leg snaps in multiple places.
     
  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The Chinese wrestling rule set is very simple. Whoever has 2 points besides his feet touch the ground, he lose that round. So if you use pull guard or jump guard, since your body will touch the ground first, you lose that round already.

    The rule set is designed to avoid one body land on another body to cause damage. It's a friendly sport to prevent injury.
     
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  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Your opponent's body weight will land on top of you. What if he drops his elbow joint or knee joint on your head, neck, chest, kidney area, belly, groin? A 180 lb average guy's weight on his elbow joint, or knee joint can cause a lot of damage. When injury happen, who's fault will the judge give?

    1. He dropped his elbow on my neck on purpose.
    2. He pulled me down, I lose balance, I just tried to maintain balance. It was a pure accident.

    IMO, it's very difficult to judge 1 vs. 2 if you are the judge.

    Many years ago, someone dropped his elbow joint straight down on top of my heart when I was on the ground. I got back up. Suddenly everything in front of me turned into darkness, and I fell back down again. I was almost killed that day.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I couldn't tell what happened in the first one because the guy walked in the way. Not sure if his foot was planted wrong or if it turned that way because of the break. The only thing I know for sure is that I rather be punched in the face lol.

    Second Video and Third Video looks the same.
    It appears that instead of sitting into the stance they are trying to escape. The third video shows the foot slipping which is similar to what happened in the second video, which gives me the impression that they are trying to pull away vs willingly receiving the technique by moving into it. Not sure if I'm explaining it clearly, but in my experience, there are some techniques that are better to go with the flow than trying to escape it. Sometimes it's the attempt to immediately escape that gets the person into trouble. Like everything else, escape requires good timing and the best time to escape is not always at the beginning of a technique. Sometimes you have to just brace for that "storm" and accept that you have been caught off guard, then try to escape after the initial impact if things slow down from there.

    Definitely YES. Avoiding the break would be easier than escaping because the breaking risk is a structure issue and not a skilled issue. Structure is basic 101 and it's the thing that people learn on day one of training. The problem is that most people forget those day one basics, or don't train those day one basics.

    Unfortunately beginner basics skills are often ignored after a person reaches more advanced skilled levels. This is true in a lot of sports. Where professionals screw up on the most basic fundamentals of their sport. For me basics are just as important as the advanced stuff. I guess I'm different because much of what I like to do is to break the structure of my opponent, and much of that is just basic beginner stuff, with advanced understanding of "why we stand a certain way." If my leg is broken then I have no chance.

    Keep in mind that I'm the instructor that used to tell students and potential students to kick me directly in the knee head on, to demonstrate the value of a bent knee and how important stances are. As a matter of fact. I've actually avoided a knee break when training with a teenage student during sparring. I was training a female student and explaining structure. I attacked the structure of her stance and she fell down. Because her ego was hurt, she started kicking at my legs and one of her kicks landed on my knee. The only thing that prevented her from breaking my leg was my solid stance. I scolded her and told her that her actions weren't acceptable and gave her a big lecture about how it's her responsibility to keep her training partner's safety in mind. Had she done the same action to another student, then their leg would have been broken.

    My brain doesn't work like this. For example:

    "Somehow catching the BJJer and being able to slam them." This isn't my first thought. My first thought is to secure my stance. I can't do anything with a weak stance including slam them. So my first thought is to secure my stance. If I'm unable to secure my stance or if it's going to be too much work to fight for, then my second thought is to give up my stance and go with the flow.

    Example of going with the flow can be seen at 0: 27 play it in slow motion. You can see my opponent is in a bad position, when his legs almost goes straight, instead of fighting it he bends his knees and goes with it. At 0:38. Here I go with the flow, but my opponent also goes with the flow. I go with the flow by giving up on trying to regain my stance. I make my opponent carry my entire weight. My opponent goes with the flow as he can no longer safely support my weight. I lift his leg when I role to in an attempt to avoid any type of mount. Not that he would have done that, but it's how I train. I try not to leave stuff out just because I think someone isn't going to do it.


    Both situations that I pointed out were my first time doing those techniques and I had no previous training to do those specific techniques. The only thing I had was an understanding of the body mechanics, for rolling someone and for weakening a takedown.


    This is why I stated that my first thought is to secure my stance. This actually happens before someone jumps the guard. It's an on going effort to always be in a good stance.


    This video looks like what some of the others were trying to do and you can see the danger that it puts the knee in.
     
  12. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 2nd Black Belt

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    Pulling guard in a real fight with real strikes seems pretty risky, imo, unless you train regularly against strikes from an opponent on top in your guard. It only takes one shot if they are able to posture up. I just feel like there are better options.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    A few people have smoked METH and have recovered, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be in group that recovers from it. In other words. I can't compare my skill sets with what a professional fighter does in MMA. While there are some people who have been able to pull off jumping guard. There are also some who haven't.


    For me. The question is "How costly do I want my mistakes to be?" and like I said I make mistakes so I can't afford to make big mistakes. If Jumping the Guard works for you then by all means, do what works.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You would want to know what is on the floor when you did it as you are jumping backwards and then letting the other guy direct your decent. All of this to let the other guy be on top of you. At which point you are counting on that guy on top not really knowing enough jujitsu to stall and bang you in the head.

    In self defence you can get away with a few chances and assumptions but you are putting a lot of risks on top of risks with a jump guard.

    Oh and if your mobile phone is in your back pocket you will probably need a new one at the end of this,
     
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  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Eh, the entire weight won't fall on top of you, only the upper half of the body. The lower half will be cut off past your hips. Also your legs are wrapped around at least the waist area (some variations go up to the armpit of your target), which also blunts the force of their weight. It would be quite a feat for someone to bring an elbow to your throat. When I've done Jump guard, their head lands around my chest area, with their elbows landing on either side of my torso.

    However, I will freely admit that I've never done jump guard with striking.
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Do this to prevent the slam:

     
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    True point. You have to be very competent in the guard to get anything out of that takedown (unless you snap their leg on the way down).
     
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In jacket wrestling, if you have a cross lapel grip (my favor grip but may be illegal in Judo), to land your forearm on your opponent's throat is almost by default. the higher your grip is, the closer your forearm is near your opponent's throat.

    [​IMG]

    It's not pleasant when your opponent does this on you when you are on the ground.

     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    [
    I'm not sure what to say about that. It creates an improper lift which is what a person wants. On the defensive side, it still puts the knees at risks. The moment I see the jump and feel the legs is the exact same moment I want to get my feet into a horse stance. Like Drop Bear hinted to. I want to be in control of your decent vs allow you to randomly slam into my body and I can't do that from a weak stance.

    The reason I can't say anything about it is because I don't know what happens next after getting into a horse stance. The only things I know at that point are:
    • that it reduces the risk of my knees folding backwards
    • that I now have a good structure to stand if I need to. Even if my waist is bending slightly forward, I would be lifting with my legs vs trying to lift with my back.
    • that I may be in a good position to stomp on your face (at this point your body will help me maintain balance on one leg by using your body as my support.
    • By me going lower in my stance, it may interfere with the "next move" that you have planned. If I can get that delay then I may be able to escape or counter with something.
    If I were going to make an attempt to stomp on your face then it would be at 0:08, I'm not staying it would work, it just that I would be in a position to do it with a good stance. The stance that the demo person is in, is not a good stance. Had the demo person re-positioned his legs at 0:08 and did a low squat then his opponent would not be directly under him because there would be no room for to get under. But the demo guy in black would have had to have a wider stance, and go with the flow vs fighting it. People ask what low horse stances are for. This would be one of those occasions.
     
  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    By the way I would need a BJJ guy in order to test my face stomp theory. I would have to blindside him with it because if I let him know, then he'll either be prepared to defend against it. I wouldn't actually stomp on his face. I just need to be able to get it a position that would either allow me to stomp or stand on his face. Being that I haven't tried the face stomp, at this point it's a theory. The rest however, I'm sure of.

    The other thing we have to be mindful of is not to mix. Self-defense with Sports. We have already gone back and forth in context of that. In either self-defense or sports, my goal would be the same. Establish a good stance or give it up and go with the flow. This is something that I've learned from doing joint locks where, fighting the lock can cause more damage than going with the flow and countering the lock.123
     

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