The Facts about Spanking - Science shows...

[Tez3]

I think there's an assumption made by some that not smacking means not discplining either which is far from the case. Smacking a child isn't the only way to discipline, I have run Cubs and Brownie groups as well as martial arts classes for children for over thirty years, in these places you can't smack children to make them behave but I have always along with a great many other people always managed to discpline and keep control of children without smacking them. It actually isn't that hard even with your own children.
There are a great many children out there who are well behaved and understand what good behaviour means without them ever having been smacked.
We should try to get away from the idea that only smacked children are well behaved children and that children who aren't smacked aren't disciplined by their parents.

 

[Sukerkin]

For my part, I am not making that assumption, Tez. I've said it a few times in this thread and I agree with you that not all adults-in-training need or respond well to smacking as the means of applying discipline. What I have been saying is not to throw the tool away or stop others from using it when it is still needed.

 

[Tez3]

For my part, I am not making that assumption, Tez. I've said it a few times in this thread and I agree with you that not all adults-in-training need or respond well to smacking as the means of applying discipline. What I have been saying is not to throw the tool away or stop others from using it when it is still needed.

Ah but I don't believe it's a tool, I believe it's not necessary and will actually only makes things worse. I don't believe pain teaches children to be good children or grow up to be good adults.

 

[Sukerkin]

:grins: Then we have an insoluble impasse when it comes to our opinions on this matter. For I believe that it is a less cruel and more effective (and more efficient) tool than the other, 'softer' but more insidious methods.

It's okay not to agree. At the end of the day, after all, I am unlikely to ever have to discipline any children in your care, or tell you how to go about it, so what I think doesn't really come into it.

 

[fangjian]

Restricting a human being from escaping or defending them-self, and hitting them, isn't exactly a great form of communication. But I will admit, I have whacked my son in the leg, while in the car. The consequences of him not shutting the f up, would be a possible car crash from distraction.
Many parents do it on a regular basis though. Seems like a bad form of communication, as I outlined above.

 

[Cyriacus]

Restricting a human being from escaping or defending them-self, and hitting them, isn't exactly a great form of communication. But I will admit, I have whacked my son in the leg, while in the car. The consequences of him not shutting the f up, would be a possible car crash from distraction.
Many parents do it on a regular basis though. Seems like a bad form of communication, as I outlined above.

Distraction can also cause Irritation, however Tolerant you are. And Irritation tends to overrule your Concentration more so than Distraction.

So Yes, this is certainly True.

 

[Tez3]

:grins: Then we have an insoluble impasse when it comes to our opinions on this matter. For I believe that it is a less cruel and more effective (and more efficient) tool than the other, 'softer' but more insidious methods.

It's okay not to agree. At the end of the day, after all, I am unlikely to ever have to discipline any children in your care, or tell you how to go about it, so what I think doesn't really come into it.

The thing is you have to have The Look and The Voice! We all remember teachers who never needed to say or do anything to make you want to behave, they didn't smack or even raise their voice but when they walked into the classroom it went quiet due to their presence, you wanted to behave for them. Other teachers could walk into the classroom and no-one noticed them!

You actually bring up another aspect for discussion as well you know! How far would people here who believe in smacking ( I'm sorry I really cannot bring myself to write spanking!) allow others to smack their children? if you believe in the 'small smack on the backside' would you allow another adult to really wallop your child as in caning, using a belt etc as was common in schools a while back?

 

[Sukerkin]

Interesting last couple of questions, Tez. The answers to them depend on context I reckon.

I also agree with your observation about the teachers who were able to parley their personality into a tool encouraging good behaviour. I do wonder if they would have been as effective if the cane had not been available as an option? The deterrent effect should not be underestimated.

 

[Cyriacus]

Interesting last couple of questions, Tez. The answers to them depend on context I reckon.

I also agree with your observation about the teachers who were able to parley their personality into a tool encouraging good behaviour. I do wonder if they would have been as effective if the cane had not been available as an option? The deterrent effect should not be underestimated.

To Expand somewhat, the School System of the Past was Orderly, for the most Part.
Nowadays, almost every Classroom ive seen has been a Breeding Ground for Malcontent.

 

[Tez3]

Interesting last couple of questions, Tez. The answers to them depend on context I reckon.

I also agree with your observation about the teachers who were able to parley their personality into a tool encouraging good behaviour. I do wonder if they would have been as effective if the cane had not been available as an option? The deterrent effect should not be underestimated.

At the schools I went to there was no caning so it wasn't a back up for the teachers. My brother went to a school however that did and it was considered a mark of honour by the boys to be caned, they laughed it off and certainly didn't stop them getting into trouble. In Scottish schools they had the 'hawse' a leather strap that was applied to the hands, it was quite brutal and again did nothing to deter children from misbehaving. Pain doesn't do the trick, it encourages bravado and defiance rather than good behaviour. It's shrugged off as is most smacking, fear of a beating may make children behave, smacking won't, it's more the parents displeasure that makes children behave.

 

[Sukerkin]

I can't say that my school experiences match those that you describe, Tez. No teacher that I know has done anything other than acknowledge that the removal of corporal punishment from schools and the home is a large contributing factor to the decline in general discipline that they have observed over the past thirty years.

You're about my age group so it can't be period that is marking that difference - maybe it's regional?

 

[Archangel M]

Comparing "paddling" in school to a parent disciplining a child is not necessarily the same thing. I don't think I EVER had to spank one of my children once they reached school age. Spanking (IMO) works best at the toddler age where reasoned discussion isn't something that works.

 

[Tez3]

I can't say that my school experiences match those that you describe, Tez. No teacher that I know has done anything other than acknowledge that the removal of corporal punishment from schools and the home is a large contributing factor to the decline in general discipline that they have observed over the past thirty years.

You're about my age group so it can't be period that is marking that difference - maybe it's regional?

Corporal punishment in schools wasn't what made for discipline, good teachers did. You can't rule by fear, that teaches nothing. The decline of good teachers is what is making schools so poor these days. Teaches have only to have a uni degree in anything and a few weeks teacher training now to go into schools, successive government initiatives to change how English reading, writing etc is taught have made the schools what they are today. The threat of being caned wasn't what made schools good, committed teachers proud of their profession who believed it was a calling to teach children made good schools. Teaching is now what people do if they can't get any other job, there's no respect for teachers because they rarely deserve any. We don't have those teachers now who wholeheartedly believed in children, who spent all their lives inspiring them to learn, who had enthuisasm and pushed the students to do their best, that's all gone, we are left with mediocre people in the classrooms who may regret not being to cane to make up for their own lack of teaching ability. I haven't seen a teacher yet in thirty years yet since my son started school to when my daughter left that is what I'd call a proper teacher who is in teaching because they believe it's a vocation rather than just a job.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is an interesting turn the discussion has taken.

Both the family environment and the school environment has changed a lot in the last forty years. As far as families go, both parents work and children get FAR less attention from parents now. Children get mixed messages about discipline because they change hands so many times from caregiver to caregiver. They key to any form of discipline is to apply it consistently and fairly, but how can parents do this in this kind of environment? It's very easy for children to get confused.

Now, put these kids into school.

At school, the change of environment has become even more radical. Forty years ago, there were more options for children. If you weren't academic, you could leave and go work. If you were a hands on learner, you could go to vocational school and perhaps apprentice yourself. If you wanted to just get by and get a diploma, you could do that and find some opportunity. If you wanted to go to college, that option was available as well. Now, schools are forcing students to be pretty much the same. They focus on standardized exams above all else. Everyone gets the same thing no matter who they are, how they learn, or what they want to do with their lives. Imagine a classroom of 30 students where 10 would rather be anywhere else, 10 are bored out of their minds and want to be challenged, and another 10 will sit and do what they are told minimally in order to get by. Most adults can't imagine how difficult it is to get that class to behave, everything about the current situation is stilted toward chaos and apathy.

IMO, if you were to reintroduce corporal punishment into this environment the result would be a prison riot.

 

[granfire]

This is an interesting turn the discussion has taken.

Both the family environment and the school environment has changed a lot in the last forty years. As far as families go, both parents work and children get FAR less attention from parents now. Children get mixed messages about discipline because they change hands so many times from caregiver to caregiver. They key to any form of discipline is to apply it consistently and fairly, but how can parents do this in this kind of environment? It's very easy for children to get confused.

Now, put these kids into school.

At school, the change of environment has become even more radical. Forty years ago, there were more options for children. If you weren't academic, you could leave and go work. If you were a hands on learner, you could go to vocational school and perhaps apprentice yourself. If you wanted to just get by and get a diploma, you could do that and find some opportunity. If you wanted to go to college, that option was available as well. Now, schools are forcing students to be pretty much the same. They focus on standardized exams above all else. Everyone gets the same thing no matter who they are, how they learn, or what they want to do with their lives. Imagine a classroom of 30 students where 10 would rather be anywhere else, 10 are bored out of their minds and want to be challenged, and another 10 will sit and do what they are told minimally in order to get by. Most adults can't imagine how difficult it is to get that class to behave, everything about the current situation is stilted toward chaos and apathy.

IMO, if you were to reintroduce corporal punishment into this environment the result would be a prison riot.

well, there are still schools that have the option (or did a few years ago), but parental consent has to be given....guess what: the kids who really could profit from the paddeling have parents who oppose it.
I suppose the biggest change is that parents no longer support school. I mean, 'back then' school called home or send a letter, you were in TROUBLE. Or like my husband said, you got paddled in school then went home and got your 2nd whipping for getting in trouble in the first place.

 

[Makalakumu]

I suppose the biggest change is that parents no longer support school.

This is larger then not supporting the school's discipline policies at home. Schools and families work at cross purposes all over the field of life. IMO, it traces back to the idea that one type of schooling will work for all kids. Our society has some major issues with how it views the family and how it's educating children. Spanking (smacking/Corporal Punishment) will not solve these issues.

 

[granfire]

This is larger then not supporting the school's discipline policies at home. Schools and families work at cross purposes all over the field of life. IMO, it traces back to the idea that one type of schooling will work for all kids. Our society has some major issues with how it views the family and how it's educating children. Spanking (smacking/Corporal Punishment) will not solve these issues.

well, yes, and no. It might depend a bit on what school district you are looking at, but from what I can tell it is literally that patents do no longer support the schools their kids go to.
Of course it is a bit more complex than that, but the essence of it is that.


(and I have to say that I can't 100% agree with Tez that teachers are no longer doing it for the calling. I have been - in the old school before we moved a bit more than the current one - blessed with dedicated teachers who battled with the desintrest of the parents that rubbed off on the kids. Friday night one lady remarked she recognized me...she was a teacher in that first school and my kid was not even in her class!! and it's been 4 years at least since I set foot in that building!)

 

[Sukerkin]

Very good points indeed on the direction that 'schooling' has taken in general over the past few decades, Maka :tup:.

That is indeed a serious issue and can, in itself, lead to discipline problems - in line with the OP topic, I would argue that, when the discipline options available are not a deterrent, then that problem is exacerbated but I have to agree that strong punishment alone will not fix things.

 

[granfire]

Very good points indeed on the direction that 'schooling' has taken in general over the past few decades, Maka :tup:.

That is indeed a serious issue and can, in itself, lead to discipline problems - in line with the OP topic, I would argue that, when the discipline options available are not a deterrent, then that problem is exacerbated but I have to agree that strong punishment alone will not fix things.

I think much of it coincides with the Barney Syndrome (AKA precious syndrome)
One of these days I will wear a T-shirt: Barney lied to you! You are not THAT special!

 

[Makalakumu]

Barney lied to you! You are not THAT special!

Ultimately, this research makes me wonder about the costs of spanking on a society as a whole. Do we shape our society to a nature of aggression and anxiety through our practice of child rearing? If so, what would our society look like without that aggression and anxiety?

Did these scientists engage in a project to socially engineer our society, or did they point out a practice that might be socially engineering our society?

What if everyone really was special? Wouldn't it be harder to hurt them or kill them or lock them up in a rape cage? What if the collective effect of violence toward the young was to devalue us in our own eyes? Would you notice this if everyone around you felt the same?