The Evil of Being Wealthy

[Flying Crane]

She means free at the point of service, mate. We all share the cost and take the benefits as and when we need them for emergency care.

I've never really grasped, at the humanitarian level, why that (communal funding) is such an evil in America-land. I've heard the arguments and the protestations about 'paying for someone elses care' and, whilst I do grasp the Nietzschean logic, they just leave a nasty impression of a selfish people concerned only with looking out for themselves. It's much better to have a publicly funded system than one based upon personal insurance, with all it's evils of short-termism, fraud, price inflation and simple ruthlessness when the money runs out.

That leaves aside the real unpleasantness that a 'for profit' system will be much more likely to embrace a palliative for baldness, with the income that implies, than a one-shot, cheap, cure for all cancer.

absolutely brilliantly stated, Mark. Sometimes my fellow citizens of this potentially great nation are an embarrassment.

 

[Twin Fist]

i feel the same way FC everytime someone expects something for nothing

 

[Xue Sheng]

Now, now. Don't make me have to explain Shakespearean English too :lol:.

Well I would but it is likely you would tell me brain is as dry as the remainder biscuit after a voyage which would escalate the already declared war from the Declaration of Independence thread and likely it would not end well and you would end with saying Methink'st thou art a general offence and every man should beat thee.

But in the end What's done is done and I desire you in friendship, and I will one way or other make you amends.

So let’s not go there

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Verily that is most meat to my fancy, good sirrah. For thy wit does rise with the tide and crack forth upon the rocks of hubris most mighty, tearing asunder their particles,seeming solid fast to a man's eyes, with writhing tenticles, alike to a Kraken in their puissance.

Or something like that ... meaning that I like your sense of humour too and would never knowingly endanger our good fellowship :bows with a smile:.

 

[JohnEdward]

:chuckles: Verily that is most meat to my fancy, good sirrah. For thy wit does rise with the tide and crack forth upon the rocks of hubris most mighty, tearing asunder their particles,seeming solid fast to a man's eyes, with writhing tenticles, alike to a Kraken in their puissance.

At first after I read that, I thought OMG another hack renfair reject geek spouting off some hack fake medieval gibberish, to get his geek thrill. Then I look up at to whom wrote it and thought aw ****, it's for real! He is British and it is the genuine stuff, damn do I feel stupid! :lol:

 

[Empty Hands]

the last TWO years years before I went back to school full time i made, COMBINED like 22K, thats 11K a year. AVERAGE

That's below the poverty line. If that's middle class, what constitutes poor?

 

[Tez3]

'I don't believe it'... Twin Fist AKA Victor Meldrow!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKAbuoB24U&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbD21z1VnGg&feature=related

 

[Makalakumu]

I've never really grasped, at the humanitarian level, why that (communal funding) is such an evil in America-land.

It finally clicked for me when I realized that I couldn't just stop paying for the wars and the military industrial complex that I so vehemently disagree with. If I stop paying, the government sends some goons with guns to throw me in a rape cage and steal any property I might have acquired. Taxation is force. Taxation is armed robbery. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, there is a gun in the room and you only have one choice and the pitiful dumbed down mob gets to make that choice for you. At a fundamental level, the system is immoral.

Should we figure out a voluntary system of supporting people in need? Absolutely! People get down on their luck and need help. Should we rob Peter to help Paul? It's that simple.

When we start robbing people for the "greater good" eventually the word "good" gets propagandized by the worst people in society until it completely loses meaning.

 

[elder999]

It finally clicked for me when I realized that I couldn't just stop paying for the wars and the military industrial complex that I so vehemently disagree with. If I stop paying, the government sends some goons with guns to throw me in a rape cage and steal any property I might have acquired. Taxation is force. Taxation is armed robbery. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, there is a gun in the room and you only have one choice and the pitiful dumbed down mob gets to make that choice for you. At a fundamental level, the system is immoral.

Should we figure out a voluntary system of supporting people in need? Absolutely! People get down on their luck and need help. Should we rob Peter to help Paul? It's that simple.

When we start robbing people for the "greater good" eventually the word "good" gets propagandized by the worst people in society until it completely loses meaning.

[yt]4nnxMhW0WL8[/yt]

 

[Steve]

That's below the poverty line. If that's middle class, what constitutes poor?

If the information Twin Fist has volunteered is true, he's in a very economically depressed area. The population is 50% white, 30% black, 16% Hispanic/Latino and the rest is "other." the median family income in Nacocdoches is just over $24,000. The poverty level in the USA for 2011 is $22,350. When Twin Fist talks about poverty, about income, about taxes and about taking care of oneself with little income, he's doing so from the perspective of someone who technically earns below the poverty level (according to him), but also lives in an area where pretty much EVERYONE lives at close to the poverty level.

I am in no way disparaging Twin Fist or where he lives. I'm strictly pointing out that we all live within our means, and everyone here is filtering based upon the cost of living in their area.

Point is simply this. We have to remember the context of statements that are made. If you earn $11,000 in a year in Nacogdoches, you might not drive a Ferrari, but you can get by.

In Seattle, you will not survive on $11k/year unless you have other resources. Whether those resources are multiple roommates, savings, a trust account, the bank of Mom and Dad... something. Without those other resources, you will necessarily be looking into some kind of public assistance.

 

[miguksaram]

In terms of tax evasion, I think that is unacceptable behaviour from ultra-wealthy even when the economy IS sound. I find it distasteful that the those from the Rothschild and Rockefeller bracket down to the brackets of the Buffets and Gates (though not those specifically as I do not want to argue philanthropies) are evading tax when the great mass of the populus are struggling to make ends meet and are STILL required to pay their own revenue dues (which in turn would offer its hand in the form of government help should the unlikely event occur that those ultra-wealthy people needed it).

If you are going to use the term tax evasion then we are almost all guilty of it in way or another. If you have kids and mark them down as dependents you are evading taxes, by your use of the wording. If you claim charities on your taxes, then you are evading taxes. So if it is wrong for the wealthy to do such things (meaning finding more loopholes to avoid taxes), then it should be held the same for everyone.

Is that immoral behaviour? I do not know. I do think it shows ZERO compassion towards those dupes like myself that have purchased their wares or deposited money in their institutions.

Then don't purchase their wares or deposit money in their institution

One story that for me since typified this kind of behaviour from a while back was the band U2 who moved their money offshore where it was sheltered from Irish taxation while that much lauded home nation of theirs off whom they made their living both literally and lyrically ran out of funds. Is it for Bono and U2 to rescue Ireland? Of course not. Their money made fair and square. I would suggest that it was perhaps just distasteful though. Immoral?

Yes, but by doing that, they keep more of their money do other things such as support the many charities they are involved in. (http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/245-u2).

 

[Steve]

If you are going to use the term tax evasion then we are almost all guilty of it in way or another. If you have kids and mark them down as dependents you are evading taxes, by your use of the wording. If you claim charities on your taxes, then you are evading taxes. So if it is wrong for the wealthy to do such things (meaning finding more loopholes to avoid taxes), then it should be held the same for everyone.

I disagree with this. You are referring to three different things: loopholes, deductions and tax evasion.

Deductions are legal and are simply a way to determine how much I owe in taxes. I'm in no way evading taxes by taking a lawful deduction. Rather, I'm correctly calculating the amount I owe.

Evasion is not paying taxes due, and is illegal. If, after taking any lawful deductions, I owe $100 and only pay $10, I'm guilty of evasion.

Loopholes are a little less concrete, but here's my definition. A loophole is a deduction that is legal, but is contrary to the spirit and intent of that deduction. My opinion is that you know when you're exploiting a loophole and when you aren't. Closing loopholes is ONE reason that our tax code is so complex. CREATING loopholes is another.

 

[miguksaram]

I disagree with this. You are referring to three different things: loopholes, deductions and tax evasion.

Deductions are legal and are simply a way to determine how much I owe in taxes. I'm in no way evading taxes by taking a lawful deduction. Rather, I'm correctly calculating the amount I owe.Evasion is not paying taxes due, and is illegal. If, after taking any lawful deductions, I owe $100 and only pay $10, I'm guilty of evasion.

Yes I know there is a difference, however, I am referring to the way the OP used the term tax evasion. She insinuated, or perhaps I assumed she meant, that the rich are "evading taxes", by using the opportunities of loop holes, deductions, ect. as do we all.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's just when they aren't down-right refusing to pay them ... Vodaphone I am looking at you!

 

[Flying Crane]

She means free at the point of service, mate. We all share the cost and take the benefits as and when we need them for emergency care.

I've never really grasped, at the humanitarian level, why that (communal funding) is such an evil in America-land. I've heard the arguments and the protestations about 'paying for someone elses care' and, whilst I do grasp the Nietzschean logic, they just leave a nasty impression of a selfish people concerned only with looking out for themselves. It's much better to have a publicly funded system than one based upon personal insurance, with all it's evils of short-termism, fraud, price inflation and simple ruthlessness when the money runs out.

That leaves aside the real unpleasantness that a 'for profit' system will be much more likely to embrace a palliative for baldness, with the income that implies, than a one-shot, cheap, cure for all cancer.

Mark, I wanted to come back to this and comment a bit further.

Early America encompassed a spirit if individualism and self reliance and was built out of the labors of those who often were willing to go it alone make something from nothing, do what it takes, etc. I certainly understand that.

However, as a cohesive nation we need to take care of our own people, including holding up those who are less fortunate. We are a nation, and we are responsible for each other. If we do not embrace that concept, then we will always be divided on a personal and fundamental level and there is no truly cohesive nation.

The way I see it, we all do better when we all do better. As a nation, we do not prosper when I prosper at the expense of my neighbor. We can actually all prosper together and we are all lifted to a much higher level collectively, than most of us would be able to climb alone. No man is an island, and all that.

This does not need to mean the demise of the individuality and self reliance that marked the early days of this nation. There is always room for that. But some things are done better when they are done collectively, for the benefit of all.

I pay my taxes and I don't mind doing so. I am smart enough to understand that for a nation to exist and thrive, it needs funding on a governmental level. I lament the waste that is often prevalent in government spending; I'm not blind to it. But the idea that taxes are simply robbery of the people is nonsense. I would rather see my taxes spent on something that would be for the benefit of the American people on a tangible level. Access to quality healthcare, for all of our citizens, fits that bill nicely. That's a much better way to spend our tax money than on global military misadventures, the likes of what we keep seeing over and over and over.

I don't understand the resistance to the idea of readily accessible heathcare. We are a wealthy nation and can certainly afford it. But people like to throw around terms like "socialism" and "communism" and demonize the very notion of it. That's an ignorant stance to take, it's fighting against something that would benefit everyone and would remove the nonsense that is the health insurance industry. To me, it's a no-brainer. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to see that it's a good idea that is way way overdue, and figuring out a viable way to implement it ought to be of the highest priority.

But alas, ignorance abounds and people scream against it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I pay my taxes and I don't mind doing so.

I mind a lot. I don't want to pay for murdering brown people overseas. It's wrong and I don't want anything I do to support that.

I am smart enough to understand that for a nation to exist and thrive, it needs funding on a governmental level. I lament the waste that is often prevalent in government spending; I'm not blind to it. But the idea that taxes are simply robbery of the people is nonsense.

If I stop paying over 50% of my federal taxes, the portion that goes to murder, goons in costume come to my door with guns. They throw me in a cage and take my property. How is this not robbery?

 

[Flying Crane]

I mind a lot. I don't want to pay for murdering brown people overseas. It's wrong and I don't want anything I do to support that.



If I stop paying over 50% of my federal taxes, the portion that goes to murder, goons in costume come to my door with guns. They throw me in a cage and take my property. How is this not robbery?

i agree that a lot of our taxes are misspent, and that should change. I agree with your protest of these particular expenditures as well. That's not how I would like my taxes spent. I'd rather those taxes go to pay for healthcare and education for all.

taxes, in and of itself, is not robbery. Without taxes, there is no nation.

 

[Twin Fist]

i dont want my taxes payng for abortions, but the government doesnt care what i want, or what you want Cinderella.


9-9-9

 

[granfire]

i dont want my taxes payng for abortions, but the government doesnt care what i want, or what you want Cinderella.


9-9-9

Well, you taxes don't pay for abortions.

 

[Steve]

9-9-9... again. Simple question. Why do you support creating a new Federal tax?