The Commercial System

[Danjo]

Hey Dan! Thanks for the reply. Yes, I see what you're saying. I was just using Kaju as an example, along with the other two. If you notice, there always seems to be this 'difference' between EPAK and say the SL4 that Doc teaches. I was just curious to see if there was that 'difference' amongst the various Kaju schools. In other words, GM Harper and Prof. Bishop both teach the original method correct? If thats the case, are they both teaching the same or would one fall into the 'commercial or motion' description that we often see with Parker material?

there might be slight differences/ppreferences between teachers etc., but no, there's no commercial Kajukenbo.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don't worry Andrew, I don't think you'll see any LARPing at a Kajukenbo school.

No I do not think we need to worry about that do we MJS!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'd say its more conditioning than anything else. This is done without any protective gear. Interestingly enough, I watched in full today, the Fight Quest Kyokushin Karate episode. I saw that same type of drill/conditioning and those guys are certainly no stranger to contact. I also found it interesting to hear two MMA guys repeatedly comment that the training was tough and kicking their ***.

It was a good episode and you are right that they were working hard and that the Kyokushinkai training was pretty darn tough.

 

[MJS]

Folks,

You will notice some posts missing from this thread. They have been split and moved here. The original purpose of this thread was to talk about the 'commercial' Kenpo system and whether or not anything was removed, why it was removed, etc.

The side discussion that was taking place was going good, so I wanted to give it its own thread, so that discussion can continue to grow.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[kaizasosei]

i'm not sure about kempo exactly, but i heard that mr.parker took some things out because many students of his were youngsters that could have gotten themselves into trouble. same as they say about karate of okinawa.
things like chops to the back of the neck, throat, dangerous pressurepoint attacks, and brutal bone breaks i can see might get rounded off a bit.

 

[MJS]

i'm not sure about kempo exactly, but i heard that mr.parker took some things out because many students of his were youngsters that could have gotten themselves into trouble. same as they say about karate of okinawa.
things like chops to the back of the neck, throat, dangerous pressurepoint attacks, and brutal bone breaks i can see might get rounded off a bit.

Thats fine to do for a child, holding off until they're mature enough for that. However, what about the adults?

 

[kaizasosei]

well, if they're adults, i guess you can hit 'em. :wink2:

?? i don't know that much more than i stated.

 

[Blindside]

i'm not sure about kempo exactly, but i heard that mr.parker took some things out because many students of his were youngsters that could have gotten themselves into trouble. same as they say about karate of okinawa.
things like chops to the back of the neck, throat, dangerous pressurepoint attacks, and brutal bone breaks i can see might get rounded off a bit.

The yellow belt curricullum originally started off as being a "kids belt," the adult curricullum started at orange. The first technique has a kick to the groin and the chop to the neck, as does the third, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this particular claim is a little odd.

 

[Doc]

The yellow belt curricullum originally started off as being a "kids belt," the adult curricullum started at orange. The first technique has a kick to the groin and the chop to the neck, as does the third, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this particular claim is a little odd.

Yeah, you're correct. This perspective suggests Parker took out "chops to the back of the neck," but left in fingers to the eyes, and hand-swords to the throat.

For the record, Parker didn't "take anything out," as much as he adjusted the material based on its method of teaching, and business plan. His mandate was quick self defense skills for the masses. The business plan was from a dance studio. The methodology utilized would be an expanded version of most women's self defense courses.

Take the quick skills in a short course that utilizes soft tissue assaults, stomping people when they are down, etc and expand it into a "style" of kenpo. Remember it is A "style"of kenpo, it is not representative of ALL of Parker's Kenpo, or the totality of his knowledge.

Anyone who knew him closely will tell you that Parker's skill and knowledge are not completely represented in the commercial system. How could it be? If you were to create a style of your art, that had to be open and marketable to everyone of all ages, and not so physically demanding that it turned people away (like some jiujitsu/grappling), and would produce reasonable skills quickly, what would it look like?

Now add that you are the only expert, but needed "students" and their students, removed from you geographically, and spread literally everywhere, to function without standing in front of you in a class learning specific basics and applications everyday. Remember the bulk of your students when you began the commercial system were already students from other styles. Few began as white belts with you, so they already had "skills and basics" they were doing and teaching. Even those that did begin with you as white belt beginners, either left when you made the commercial push, or embraced it for the money and or the prestige of "business promotions." (Of course many left to form their own "business" once they learned enough of the kenpo business to do so.)

You "allow" flexibility to lure these students to you, introduce concepts to support that flexibility, and promote it as a sales tool. "Unlike the traditional school down the street, the style promotes and teaches, "You don't have to do it that way, you can do it this way if you like." This was so radical a concept it revolutionized, and literally created the business of self-defense from scratch.

While many criticized Parker for creating this "sloppy slap art," these same people attempted to do the same when they observed how financially successful Parker became rather quickly. This spawned a plethora of "kenpo business styles" attempting to capitalize on that success. That was followed by obscure non-kenpo styles that did the same thing in an attempt to rise to prominence. Seriously, it's all driven by financial concerns.

Although the limitations are obvious, they are a result of the marketing demographic mandate more than anything else. But even so, Parker managed to hint at much of the material that is "left out," by including grappling and manipulations options and scenarios, and even some "nerve" material hidden among some scenarios.

But, he had to create a system to satisfy the many levels of skill, desire, and capabilities, of its many participants. The quality and flavor of what you do will always be the responsibility of those that teach it. It has always been the teachers job to decipher some material and raise their own personal level of understanding to their highest capability. But teachers, are just students. Whatever their level, that is the level of their students. Most would not put in the work, travel, etc necessary to do that. For most it just wasn't possible, but the business forced their promotions anyway. "Just because the red show...." remember that was Parker's own saying, created at a time when only his kenpo people had red stripes on their belts. So who was he speaking to?

Over and above the inherent limitations of the commercial system, it is still a viable and effective methodology, but it will never be any better than the teacher that teaches it. If there are any problems with a persons "commercial" kenpo, don't blame the vehicle, blame the guy with all the "business stripes" taking your bucks.

 

[Danjo]

One of the things that I remember Ralph Gracie saying back when I was at his school was that Helio was pretty upset by much of what was being taught as BJJ because it focused so much on the sportive aspects of the art and left out the self defense pre-arranged techniques that were part of the curriculum he designed and taught. In his book, The Master Text, Helio spends the bulk of the book showing those pre-set techniques against various self defense scenarios. I know that this tends to fly in the face of what most people think of when they think of BJJ,. THey think of Kenpo and say, "Doing a pre-set technique against a compliant uke is worthless", but that's what the founder and still head of Gracie JJ believes is the most important part of the art. He feels that most of what is being taught as BJJ is watered down and too sportive. Also, most of the pre-set Gracie JJ scenarios are stand-up, not ground, techniques. Go figure.

 

[Doc]

One of the things that I remember Ralph Gracie saying back when I was at his school was that Helio was pretty upset by much of what was being taught as BJJ because it focused so much on the sportive aspects of the art and left out the self defense pre-arranged techniques that were part of the curriculum he designed and taught. In his book, The Master Text, Helio spends the bulk of the book showing those pre-set techniques against various self defense scenarios. I know that this tends to fly in the face of what most people think of when they think of BJJ,. THey think of Kenpo and say, "Doing a pre-set technique against a compliant uke is worthless", but that's what the founder and still head of Gracie JJ believes is the most important part of the art. He feels that most of what is being taught as BJJ is watered down and too sportive. Also, most of the pre-set Gracie JJ scenarios are stand-up, not ground, techniques. Go figure.

Of course you know this is a scenario that has been playing itself out all over the world for the last century. Old school "real art," versus newbies wanting to compete to demonstrate their superior martial prowess and stroke their own egos to go with their belts. Every art in general, from every country has gone through this. The only difference is, America started with "new school" and can't back to old school, because of the culture. I wrote an article for the magazine about it awhile back. It's posted on Danny Inosanto's site. http://paintball.iisports.com/page.asp?content_id=8032

 

[Danjo]

Of course you know this is a scenario that has been playing itself out all over the world for the last century. Old school "real art," versus newbies wanting to compete to demonstrate their superior martial prowess and stroke their own egos to go with their belts. Every art in general, from every country has gone through this. The only difference is, America started with "new school" and can't back to old school, because of the culture. I wrote an article for the magazine about it awhile back. It's posted on Danny Inosanto's site. http://paintball.iisports.com/page.asp?content_id=8032

Thanks for the article. It clears up some things I had wondered about before about the need for a direct one-to-one transfer of knowledge given the huge amount of integrated information contained.

If something is a science, then it can be taught with precision. Not that there aren't scientific break-throughs from time to time, but it's far more precise a discipline than art is where only the basics can be taught then the student is on his own and everything depends on their vision and aptitude. But since that tends to fly in the face of the idea that everything of value has to be taught in strictly "alive" conditions, it's bound to be dismissed by most people these days, hence the need for a more commercial vehicle.

 

[jks9199]

One of the things that I remember Ralph Gracie saying back when I was at his school was that Helio was pretty upset by much of what was being taught as BJJ because it focused so much on the sportive aspects of the art and left out the self defense pre-arranged techniques that were part of the curriculum he designed and taught. In his book, The Master Text, Helio spends the bulk of the book showing those pre-set techniques against various self defense scenarios. I know that this tends to fly in the face of what most people think of when they think of BJJ,. THey think of Kenpo and say, "Doing a pre-set technique against a compliant uke is worthless", but that's what the founder and still head of Gracie JJ believes is the most important part of the art. He feels that most of what is being taught as BJJ is watered down and too sportive. Also, most of the pre-set Gracie JJ scenarios are stand-up, not ground, techniques. Go figure.

There's more to this sort of training than working with a compliant partner. That's only the beginning... Once you have the basic motions, your partner should become increasingly less compliant, instead of continuing to let you get the hold or work the sequence. The attack should stop being the basic, easy feed, and become more erratic, at different angles, and so on.

I can't address whether BJJ has become too sport oriented -- or if kenpo is to business/sales oriented. That's something each practitioner has to judge for themselves.

 

[Jdokan]

Oke Doke.

Well said!!
I think the best way to train the body to accept contact is in controlled sessions that get increasingly harder....I you can't hit the wakiwara board extremely hard then how could you expect the hands to be conditioned to be a weapon...by the same token if when you get hit HARD how are you going to know that you can take it??? ( without turtling) Unless you undergo proper training drills....In my session I expect to get hit as I expect to hit....goes with the territory...better to cry in the dojo than bleed in the streets...(old polish proverb)

 

[Jdokan]

Well said!!
I think the best way to train the body to accept contact is in controlled sessions that get increasingly harder....If you can't hit the wakiwara board extremely hard then how could you expect the hands to be conditioned to be a weapon...by the same token if when you get hit HARD how are you going to know that you can take it??? ( without turtling) Unless you undergo proper training drills....In my session I expect to get hit as I expect to hit....goes with the territory...better to cry in the dojo than bleed in the streets...(old polish proverb)

gotta start using word to spell check .....

 

[Doc]

Well said!!
I think the best way to train the body to accept contact is in controlled sessions that get increasingly harder....I you can't hit the wakiwara board extremely hard then how could you expect the hands to be conditioned to be a weapon...by the same token if when you get hit HARD how are you going to know that you can take it??? ( without turtling) Unless you undergo proper training drills....In my session I expect to get hit as I expect to hit....goes with the territory...better to cry in the dojo than bleed in the streets...(old polish proverb)

We call it "training camp."

 

[diamondbar1971]

Doc, you always hit the nail on the head and then drive it into the ground..i really enjoy your explanations when you reply to everyone's postings

 

[diamondbar1971]

I don't think changes within any of the arts makes it watered down. I always had a hard time with, what you do with the right, you do with the left. I kick a football with my right leg but when I broad (now comes the term politically correct) Long jumped I used my left. I had a horse roll down an embankment years ago and really tore up my left shoulder, and I had to make some adjustments in certain moves and I don't feel as if I have watered down anything, as a matter of fact it works out even better as I am only
5' 6" and its easier to come around to my right bringing my left arm along with it.

 

[Doc]

I don't think changes within any of the arts makes it watered down. I always had a hard time with, what you do with the right, you do with the left. I kick a football with my right leg but when I broad (now comes the term politically correct) Long jumped I used my left. I had a horse roll down an embankment years ago and really tore up my left shoulder, and I had to make some adjustments in certain moves and I don't feel as if I have watered down anything, as a matter of fact it works out even better as I am only
5' 6" and its easier to come around to my right bringing my left arm along with it.

"You can't, by definition, call something "watered down" that has everything in it that its supposed to have when it was created." - Dr. Ron Chapél

You may however compare it to another entity and say that, "In comparison, it appears to be watered down.

 

[diamondbar1971]

Thanks, i guess i just wanted someone else to agree or at least see another side of it, as i only added and didn't take away