The Commercial System

[MJS]

It seems whenever there is talk about the commercial system, it seems as if there are things that are missing, compared to the original version. Now, in another thread here about the neutral bow, Doc said:

"Actually sir, that's true only on a limited basis. One of the things promoted in the commercial system is the concept of tailoring to allow flexibility for short term results. This is a major departure from "Old World Concepts" that taught for the long haul, over quick skills that diminish quickly as well. The business requires this perspective as customers are looking for immediate results, sometimes to their own physical detriment. Back, hip, shoulder, rotator cuff, elbow, and knee problems abound."

Now, why, if someone is looking for effective self defense, would someone want to 'water down' so to speak, the material? Did the Tracys do this? Do the Kajukenbo schools do this? Do any of the other Kenpo instructors out there such as Larry Tatum do this? IMHO, it seems to me that there are a handful, if that, of people that do not water anything down. Doc, it seems that you are in that handful.

So..at this time, I'd like to open this up for discussion. I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpo arts, ie: Parker, Tracy, Kaju, so don't be shy...please post your comments.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

having only studied the Tracy system, and never studied under any other lineage of kenpo, I really don't have much to say. I cannot point out any comparisons because I simply havent experienced anything else to compare with. Not sure where this will go...

 

[pete]

one man's water is another man's wine. drink up drink up, let me fill your cup...

 

[Monadnock]

Here's a thought: they are ALL commercial systems.

 

[Danjo]

It seems whenever there is talk about the commercial system, it seems as if there are things that are missing, compared to the original version. Now, in another thread here about the neutral bow, Doc said:

"Actually sir, that's true only on a limited basis. One of the things promoted in the commercial system is the concept of tailoring to allow flexibility for short term results. This is a major departure from "Old World Concepts" that taught for the long haul, over quick skills that diminish quickly as well. The business requires this perspective as customers are looking for immediate results, sometimes to their own physical detriment. Back, hip, shoulder, rotator cuff, elbow, and knee problems abound."

Now, why, if someone is looking for effective self defense, would someone want to 'water down' so to speak, the material? Did the Tracys do this? Do the Kajukenbo schools do this? Do any of the other Kenpo instructors out there such as Larry Tatum do this? IMHO, it seems to me that there are a handful, if that, of people that do not water anything down. Doc, it seems that you are in that handful.

So..at this time, I'd like to open this up for discussion. I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpo arts, ie: Parker, Tracy, Kaju, so don't be shy...please post your comments.

Mike

Well, Kajukenbo isn't the same art as EPAK (commercial or otherwise) so it's not a matter of it being watered down or not. Sijo Emperado was Prof. Chow's first black belt and broke off to group with four others to form the original nucleus of Kajukenbo in 1950 before Ed Parker even got to the mainland in 1953. Ed Parker's personal Kenpo isn't the original Kenpo Karate that he first taught either if I remember Doc's earlier posts correctly, but rather his development of Kenpo resulting from many influences and his own personal innovations over the years. It just wasn't readily packaged and sold.

 

[Hand Sword]

Generally speaking, I don't feel that "Tailoring" is a weakness. Are there physical corrections that can and should be made at times---ABSOLUTELY! But, here, I refer to the term generally. I feel that it's something that is unavoidable. As the art becomes more and more one's own, through practice and experiences, certain tailorings are made intentionally, or unintentionally. We all have certain preferences, likes, dislikes, ertc.... I would also say, that tailoring has gone on since the very first practitoner, and will always continue to do so. Even Mr. Parker, Emperado. etc.. tailored what they were taught to fit them more. I would rather call it "shortcuts", instead of tailoring.

 

[Andrew Green]

Here's a thought: they are ALL commercial systems.

And some use "we are not commercial" as a marketing gimic

 

[Doc]

It seems whenever there is talk about the commercial system, it seems as if there are things that are missing, compared to the original version. Now, in another thread here about the neutral bow, Doc said:

"Actually sir, that's true only on a limited basis. One of the things promoted in the commercial system is the concept of tailoring to allow flexibility for short term results. This is a major departure from "Old World Concepts" that taught for the long haul, over quick skills that diminish quickly as well. The business requires this perspective as customers are looking for immediate results, sometimes to their own physical detriment. Back, hip, shoulder, rotator cuff, elbow, and knee problems abound."

Now, why, if someone is looking for effective self defense, would someone want to 'water down' so to speak, the material? Did the Tracys do this? Do the Kajukenbo schools do this? Do any of the other Kenpo instructors out there such as Larry Tatum do this? IMHO, it seems to me that there are a handful, if that, of people that do not water anything down. Doc, it seems that you are in that handful.

So..at this time, I'd like to open this up for discussion. I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpo arts, ie: Parker, Tracy, Kaju, so don't be shy...please post your comments.

Mike

Well the idea that some "do original, nothing left out kenpo," is incorrect as well. There isn't anything left out of Parker's commercial art that you'll find in Tracy's or other Parker Lineage's. kenpo wasn't developed to that extent that some think. Parker chose to allow students and teachers alike to express the material more conceptually though re-arrangement concepts and personal tailoring. Others chose to count every variation as a different entity or technique. Same thing. All martial arts engage in tailoring at some point. What made the commercial system unique is it put tailoring in the hands of students. Traditional arts mandate a strict study of basics and develops specific skills and knowledge, allowing the student to reach a significant level of competence, (usually well beyond black belt) before beginning a personal tailoring process based on a now substantial knowledge base. Therefore a student knows what is reasonable tailoring, and what tailoring is not acceptable. Tailoring for unsupported knowledge personal preferences alone just dilutes the process of the unskilled, but it allows for quick promotions and satisfies students desires and therefore student retention. In the business students are empowered to create a feeling of satisfaction with the product, through a measure of participation in their personal development.

Parker was developing different versions of Kenpo until he passed. One of those versions was motion based, and it was the chosen commercial product because it didn't require him to be in a school teaching strict basics or concepts. He also worked concurrently on other versions as well, including versions that had some cross-pollination through the evolutionary process.

What Parker did do is remove the "Control Manipulations" from the strict structure of the motion based structure, because it was not user friendly. It required a measure of pain, learning to fall, and it required a knowledgeable hands on teacher for every aspect. Something the business couldn't support, as the bulk of mature students didn't want to "wrestle." There is a reason most manipulation schools are in clubs and gyms and are only semi-commercial. The numbers are low. He also, after making reference to "nerve strikes" in his first book, removed all references in subsequent writings, as being too dangerous for commercial applications in schools full of, and dominated by teenage adolescents and children.

But Parker was very clever. Although he removed these things, he always hinted at their existence through the material. In fact 75% of the named techniques in his commercial system require significant manipulations, even though most teach them without that consideration. "Twisted Twig" is an attack of a wrist-flex and throw. "Entangled wing" is another variation as well on the theme. All of these things can be taught at the knowledge level of the teacher. Of course that means some variations are better than others that address the material realistically over a "move first" mentality found in defending against punches. It also means on one level, you have to spend as much time learning the attacks as the defenses. You have to learn a wrist-flex throw attack, to learn how to defend against it with a training partner.

The notion that all the material is commercial is not true. The Kenpo material based on "motion" was specifically designed, created, and built from the ground up to be a commercial business model based on a dance studio concept. There are those however who do not teach it "commercially and choose to teach for the sheer enjoyment for little reward. However, the material is still commercially based in the Ed parker business of self defense studio proliferation, and therefore is a commercial system.

There are some that suggest that the declaration of being "non-commercial" is itself a business ploy and sales technique. The test for this is when someone says they are non-commercial, check to see if they advertise their school locations, and whether or not the school is open to the public and invites and accepts everyone who may stumble upon it. Of course they could still be teaching commercial material. However if the material is not based on the commercial version of Kenpo, and is not open to the public, and is unconcerned about numbers and only the quality of the product, it's a good bet they are indeed non-commercial. It isn't hard to tell when someone is in the "business" and when they're not. Call them up and ask their hours and how much it costs. If you can't find them or get them on the phone, they probably aren't fishing for business.

 

[Jdokan]

Now, why, if someone is looking for effective self defense, would someone want to 'water down' so to speak, the material?

So..at this time, I'd like to open this up for discussion. I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpo arts, ie: Parker, Tracy, Kaju, so don't be shy...please post your comments.

Mike[/quote
To comment on why water down...I think first we have to ask is this done for a specific reason. 1) Is this a self-defense course? If so what is the objective? A 6-8 week program that is geared at giving the customer an understanding of basic self-defense...is a watered down program by design and as such is fine...From what I've heard reported from most of the Ken/mpo systems is each founder tends to increase the the requirements....
From my own experience I seen more material added... but I've also seen things watered down from a blood and guts respect...
We're not really teaching for the same reasons that the early Instructors did...survival techniques....Today's client is looking for the "health club" something that most can discuss over martini's...I think if you told them that broken bones are inevitable most would never sign up....So is watering down something done...I guess it must be....
How many instructors today put their students through the same physical requirements that they went through themselves??? I'm sure there are still the Blood, Sweat & Tears classes out there but by the large part...most are doing what they have to remain profitable....
IMO...

 

[Andrew Green]

The test for this is when someone says they are non-commercial, check to see if they advertise their school locations, and whether or not the school is open to the public and invites and accepts everyone who may stumble upon it.

Again, I've seen schools that do all of that as their sales gimic. They won't call it that, but that's what it is. A way to attract students based on getting them to believe they are joining something "special." We'll call it the "Secret clubhouse" marketing method. Working off the belief that people want to join the "secret club" and instilling a sense of superiority to all the non-members.

In many cases this is almost a dangerous, cult like form of recruitment.

 

[Danjo]

Again, I've seen schools that do all of that as their sales gimic. They won't call it that, but that's what it is. A way to attract students based on getting them to believe they are joining something "special." We'll call it the "Secret clubhouse" marketing method. Working off the belief that people want to join the "secret club" and instilling a sense of superiority to all the non-members.

In many cases this is almost a dangerous, cult like form of recruitment.

Um, I think that's very rare. Usually you can tell by a couple of things the main one being if the instructor is making a living teaching the martial arts. If they are, there's a good chance that they are watering down the material or the requirements or both. If they are charging a fee, but clearly not enough to live on, then they are probably delivering good instruction. I don't think it's a marketing ploy ala a TKD "Black Belt Club" that you get to join for 50 bucks a month more and you get to feel like you're part of the "inner sanctum".

Most of us know who the serious practitioners are out there in the Kenpo and Kajukenbo world and who the McDojos are.

 

[Andrew Green]

Both bood instructors and bad instructors can run either big schools or small schools. Size is not a determing factor.

I believe very strongly in a open school, one that allows anyone to come in and work out. Closed door schools are in my mind a very strong sign of poor instruction. There are two basically two types, or extremes in this category. One is a competitive team, here it is understandable. The other is more of a ego driven issue, where the instructor has some big but questionable claims, or someone above him does. They claim to have inherited something secret, that everyone else doesn't know about. These guys are using martial arts as a source for a cult leader like ego boast. Not a healthy training environment.

Financial success does not equal poor instruction. Nor does a instructor putting up his own cash to keep the doors open equal good instruction.

 

[Danjo]

Both bood instructors and bad instructors can run either big schools or small schools. Size is not a determing factor.

I believe very strongly in a open school, one that allows anyone to come in and work out. Closed door schools are in my mind a very strong sign of poor instruction. There are two basically two types, or extremes in this category. One is a competitive team, here it is understandable. The other is more of a ego driven issue, where the instructor has some big but questionable claims, or someone above him does. They claim to have inherited something secret, that everyone else doesn't know about. These guys are using martial arts as a source for a cult leader like ego boast. Not a healthy training environment.

Financial success does not equal poor instruction. Nor does a instructor putting up his own cash to keep the doors open equal good instruction.

It goes to the motives of the closed door policy. If it's to ensure serious students because the instructor is only interested in teaching those that are serious, then I don't see anything sinister about that.

In most cases, the quality of instruction is in direct proportion to how much they need that money to support themselves. If you have an example of someone making a lot of money teaching that still delivers quality instruction and doesn't water down the requirements, I'd be interested in hearing who they are.

 

[Andrew Green]

It goes to the motives of the closed door policy. If it's to ensure serious students because the instructor is only interested in teaching those that are serious, then I don't see anything sinister about that.

In most cases, the quality of instruction is in direct proportion to how much they need that money to support themselves. If you have an example of someone making a lot of money teaching that still delivers quality instruction and doesn't water down the requirements, I'd be interested in hearing who they are.

Most gyms that have big name pro's attached to them are going to have high fees, and full time coaches that make their living training people. If you want to train at Team Quest, or the Gracie academy, it's gonna cost a little.

Even if you don't like full contact styles, there are guys like Ernie Reyes. You might not agree what he does, but he is damn good at it, and I'm sure he charges for it.

Or for a more self-defence orientated school I would imagine folks like Dan Inostanto and Tony Blauer aren't cheap.

Hell Bruce Lee was a expensive guy to get training from, and he was pretty good at what he did. Didn't Ed Parker make a living teaching as well?

I really don't get this assumption that so many people have that people want poor training and flock to the gyms that provide it. There are a lot of people that want good training, and are willing to pay for it. There are also a lot of people that want after school programs and are willing to pay for those.

But you can run a commercially successful school AND teach good quality martial arts.

 

[LawDog]

You will pay for what you purchase,
*Purchase a membership into a quality school,
You could become what you wanted to be,
*Purchase membership into a romper room type of school,
You could become what they are.
:supcool:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Here's a thought: they are ALL commercial systems.

Vely inelestink.
Sean

 

[Danjo]

Most gyms that have big name pro's attached to them are going to have high fees, and full time coaches that make their living training people. If you want to train at Team Quest, or the Gracie academy, it's gonna cost a little.

Even if you don't like full contact styles, there are guys like Ernie Reyes. You might not agree what he does, but he is damn good at it, and I'm sure he charges for it.

Or for a more self-defence orientated school I would imagine folks like Dan Inostanto and Tony Blauer aren't cheap.

Hell Bruce Lee was a expensive guy to get training from, and he was pretty good at what he did. Didn't Ed Parker make a living teaching as well?

I really don't get this assumption that so many people have that people want poor training and flock to the gyms that provide it. There are a lot of people that want good training, and are willing to pay for it. There are also a lot of people that want after school programs and are willing to pay for those.

But you can run a commercially successful school AND teach good quality martial arts.

Well, if you're a world famous martial artist and live in a large city, you can probably make a living at it and still keep up your quality. Ed Parker created the commercial Kenpo Doc speaks of because he wasn't making any money doing the other stuff mentioned. Bruce Lee taught movie stars and was teaching in a culture 40 years ago when there weren't as many McDojos for folks to choose from. Now movie stars like Christian Slater train at the USSD in Brentwood and think they are learning something of value.

The reason people flock to the McDojos is because they want to learn something about self defense, but really don't want to put in the time and effort it takes to master something real. People will pay good money to feel good about themselves and the McDojos are like the Martial Art equivelant of Pectoral Implants for men who don't want to do push-ups or bench-presses., i.e., and expensive short cut that looks good on the surface.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, if you're a world famous martial artist and live in a large city, you can probably make a living at it and still keep up your quality. Ed Parker created the commercial Kenpo Doc speaks of because he wasn't making any money doing the other stuff mentioned. Bruce Lee taught movie stars and was teaching in a culture 40 years ago when there weren't as many McDojos for folks to choose from. Now movie stars like Christian Slater train at the USSD in Brentwood and think they are learning something of value.

The reason people flock to the McDojos is because they want to learn something about self defense, but really don't want to put in the time and effort it takes to master something real. People will pay good money to feel good about themselves and the McDojos are like the Martial Art equivelant of Pectoral Implants for men who don't want to do push-ups or bench-presses., i.e., and expensive short cut that looks good on the surface.

Another reason may be that that school was closest... Just as with most of your students.
Sean

 

[Andrew Green]

So are closed door systems, in fact I'd say they are better at making people feel they are learning something super.

As for the schools, you asked for examples, would you prefer I list schools that you've not heard of? Don't see what good that would do to be honest. Point is the same, a good instructor can teach good material and make a living doing so. Takes a combination of not just teaching, but also business skills.

This commercial vs "secret" is a faulty split, but if that's what you are after check out the back of a martial arts magazine. "Secret style only I know because I awas the only one worthy and learnt it in a secret room with no witnesses" is a fairly widely used marketing scheme, usually associated with frauds.

 

[Danjo]

Another reason may be that that school was closest... Just as with most of your students.
Sean

Not even close. There are a half dozen TKD schools within a 1/2 mile radius of our school. there's a karate class that uses the same facility on different days of the week. There's a Red Dragon School across the street. etc. etc. all of whom have larger enrollments and charge more money.