Who all in Hapkido have trained with the cane? I know that Hapkido is one of the largets proponents of the use of the cane.
The Cane
- Thread starter Rob Broad
- Start date
Ronin Moose
Blue Belt
I don't practice Hapkido, but I have attended two "CaneMasters" seminars, and am studying their program now. The cane is a very effective weapon, and is completely unassuming to someone passing you by.
GM Mark Shuey, Sr. is a veteran Hapkido sensei, and he custom makes a sturdy, good-looking cane that feels right. Check out his website at http://www.canemasters.com
Best regards,
Garry
GM Mark Shuey, Sr. is a veteran Hapkido sensei, and he custom makes a sturdy, good-looking cane that feels right. Check out his website at http://www.canemasters.com
Best regards,
Garry
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
I have heard both the good and teh bad about GM Shuey. Where abouts does the cane fit into the Hapkido curriculum.
D
Disco
Guest
Hapkido weapons are usually taught when you get to the higher color belt or in some schools the BB level. The cane is a very good weapon, but there are limitations. The limitations actually have to do with the person using the cane. What many people forget is that using the cane was taught to people that really had to use it for mobility. Those people had limited strength, flexability and mobility. Some how the cane became a discipline unto itself, i.e. Cane Masters. Like any other weapon, you must have it available to use. The only people that have it available are those that actually need it and they can't utilize the host of techniques that have become associated with the training. Kind of a catch 22. 
You may want to check this page out.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1834
You may want to check this page out.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1834
W
whalen
Guest
GM Mark Shuey, Sr. is a veteran Hapkido sensei, and he custom makes a sturdy, good-looking cane that feels right. Check out his website athttp://www.canemasters.com
Let me just clarify a few things "Sensei" Is a Japanese term for instructor if this is indeed a Hapkidoin he would not use Japanese terminology but rather that of Korean.
Whom did this Hapkido veteran sensei train with ? I personally have never heard of him until seeing his ads in the magazines . But this does not mean anything I am sure he has never heard of me ,
Also on another note cane was tradition taught at 4th dan level in korea when I attended the instructors course in korea in 1982
Halartyon:
Let me just clarify a few things "Sensei" Is a Japanese term for instructor if this is indeed a Hapkidoin he would not use Japanese terminology but rather that of Korean.
Whom did this Hapkido veteran sensei train with ? I personally have never heard of him until seeing his ads in the magazines . But this does not mean anything I am sure he has never heard of me ,
Also on another note cane was tradition taught at 4th dan level in korea when I attended the instructors course in korea in 1982
Hal
artyon:
Ronin Moose
Blue Belt
Let me just clarify a few things "Sensei" Is a Japanese term for instructor if this is indeed a Hapkidoin he would not use Japanese terminology but rather that of Korean.
Thank you for correcting me on my use of the word sensei. I do not study a Korean art and am not familiar with the proper title for instructor, which by the way you did not enlighten me on.
Whom did this Hapkido veteran sensei train with ? I personally have never heard of him until seeing his ads in the magazines . But this does not mean anything I am sure he has never heard of me ,
I really don't know. I am not confirming or professing his longevity in the arts in any fashion. I can only comment on the seminars I've attended and the cane I purchased. In my very humble opinion I have to stand on what I said earlier - it is a quality piece of wood, and I have learned some useful techniques. You don't know me either, but I'll bet my opinion is worth as much as yours - as opinions go.
Also on another note cane was tradition taught at 4th dan level in korea when I attended the instructors course in korea in 1982
I truly congratulate you on that accomplishment. It may be some type of taboo "within the system", but I'm not sure what the crime is in teaching the cane, as a self defense tool, at any level - even humble beginners like me.
I do not mean to be argumentative, but as you said - you've never heard of the guy, and he's probably never heard of you either, so I'm sure you must both be legitimate and sincere. Or not.
Best regards........
Thank you for correcting me on my use of the word sensei. I do not study a Korean art and am not familiar with the proper title for instructor, which by the way you did not enlighten me on.
Whom did this Hapkido veteran sensei train with ? I personally have never heard of him until seeing his ads in the magazines . But this does not mean anything I am sure he has never heard of me ,
I really don't know. I am not confirming or professing his longevity in the arts in any fashion. I can only comment on the seminars I've attended and the cane I purchased. In my very humble opinion I have to stand on what I said earlier - it is a quality piece of wood, and I have learned some useful techniques. You don't know me either, but I'll bet my opinion is worth as much as yours - as opinions go.
Also on another note cane was tradition taught at 4th dan level in korea when I attended the instructors course in korea in 1982
I truly congratulate you on that accomplishment. It may be some type of taboo "within the system", but I'm not sure what the crime is in teaching the cane, as a self defense tool, at any level - even humble beginners like me.
I do not mean to be argumentative, but as you said - you've never heard of the guy, and he's probably never heard of you either, so I'm sure you must both be legitimate and sincere. Or not.
Best regards........
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Ronin Moose:
Good points, all. Only as a reflection of my own training would I make the following comment.
In YMK Hapkido the cane is taught as part of a larger weapons curriculum, with each weapon designated to be accomplished by a particular point in ones' development. That doesn't mean that a guppie can't learn cane, or sword or knife for that matter. I will say, though, that the introduction of each weapon builds on the biomechanics learned from familiarization with the previous weapon so teasing out a single weapon and early could have some disrupting influence on the flow of that development. The operative word here is "could". It will depend a lot on the student I am sure and the teacher.
The other point is that while a weapon is introduced at a particular point in the YMK Hapkido persons development it is understood that each person will find a special affinity for a particular weapon. In this way, for instance, I have a true love of sword and have gone way beyond what GM Myung teaches for sword in his curriculum. By comparison I find the cane interesting and an acceptable weapon for public carry, but I have done precious little beyond mastering the basic 30 or so techniques. Some people will probably take it much farther by investigating Chinese and Japanese stick work for additional insights. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Good points, all. Only as a reflection of my own training would I make the following comment.
In YMK Hapkido the cane is taught as part of a larger weapons curriculum, with each weapon designated to be accomplished by a particular point in ones' development. That doesn't mean that a guppie can't learn cane, or sword or knife for that matter. I will say, though, that the introduction of each weapon builds on the biomechanics learned from familiarization with the previous weapon so teasing out a single weapon and early could have some disrupting influence on the flow of that development. The operative word here is "could". It will depend a lot on the student I am sure and the teacher.
The other point is that while a weapon is introduced at a particular point in the YMK Hapkido persons development it is understood that each person will find a special affinity for a particular weapon. In this way, for instance, I have a true love of sword and have gone way beyond what GM Myung teaches for sword in his curriculum. By comparison I find the cane interesting and an acceptable weapon for public carry, but I have done precious little beyond mastering the basic 30 or so techniques. Some people will probably take it much farther by investigating Chinese and Japanese stick work for additional insights. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
W
whalen
Guest
I truly congratulate you on that accomplishment. It may be some type of taboo "within the system", but I'm not sure what the crime is in teaching the cane, as a self defense tool, at any level - even humble beginners like me.
What I had stated was they required this weapon at a certain leve lthis was not meant to be argumentative.
My students learn cane and have a knowledge of that weapon well before they reach Dan Rank.
If you use it to strike and block that is one thing when it is used to joint-lock throw or restrain you have to have a basic understanding of Ranges and angles of attack. theories of evasion various angular or circular response's so as to trap and subdue.
Along with using the cane you have to know how a joint lock works and why we twist this way compared to another way.
Hal
artyon:
What I had stated was they required this weapon at a certain leve lthis was not meant to be argumentative.
My students learn cane and have a knowledge of that weapon well before they reach Dan Rank.
If you use it to strike and block that is one thing when it is used to joint-lock throw or restrain you have to have a basic understanding of Ranges and angles of attack. theories of evasion various angular or circular response's so as to trap and subdue.
Along with using the cane you have to know how a joint lock works and why we twist this way compared to another way.
Hal
artyon:
Ronin Moose
Blue Belt
Thanks Hal. In Kenpo we actually do have a good bit of training by the brown belt level with joint locks and manipulations, as well as ranges, angles of attack, etc. As a personal trainer, I am working to develop a program for seniors in my area that will include several things within their individual levels of fitness, aimed toward activities to help them at this stage in life. While I wasn't considering those who actually need a cane to walk or support themself, there are a good many who do walk for exercise without any artificial or supplemental support. For those folks, it seems that their walking with a cane in hand would not draw much attention as something unusual, especially to a predator (who might actually take that as a sign of weakness). In that situation I had hoped to arm them with a practical self defense weapon - at least more practical than some of the things they carry now. To that end I have endeavored to learn what I can about the cane, not as part of a system (as in your art), but to augment a more comprehensive program for the aging folks in my community.
Best wishes to you......
Best wishes to you......
Dear Ronin Moose.
I too knew nothing about the cane until I met Grandmaster Shuey at a seminar..I was so impressed that I purchased a cane and the study guide..Totally unassuming and as it says in the ads in BlackBelt magazine "a club with a meat hook".
I too knew nothing about the cane until I met Grandmaster Shuey at a seminar..I was so impressed that I purchased a cane and the study guide..Totally unassuming and as it says in the ads in BlackBelt magazine "a club with a meat hook".
greendragon
Green Belt
Thanks Hal. In Kenpo we actually do have a good bit of training by the brown belt level with joint locks and manipulations
Wow, I was never aware that Kenpo was a grappling, throwing, joint locking martial art? Do you guys have a set curriculum of joint locks with technical names, and have them on every belt test? It seems that the cane has shown up a lot of places since the early days of Doju Nim Ji Han Jae adding it to Hapkido.
Michael Tomlinson
Wow, I was never aware that Kenpo was a grappling, throwing, joint locking martial art? Do you guys have a set curriculum of joint locks with technical names, and have them on every belt test? It seems that the cane has shown up a lot of places since the early days of Doju Nim Ji Han Jae adding it to Hapkido.
Michael Tomlinson
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Rob:
You may want to do some historical digging. The use of the lasso from the steppe horse-riding culture, the snaring weapons and the hooks are documented and found in various art work going back at least as far as the beginning of the Yi dynasty about 1400ad. The classic sword form, BON KUK GUM BUP, can be seen to use a number of techniques which readily bear the interpretation of dealing with circumstances where someone is atempting to snare or encumber the swordsman and various hooked implements turn up over and over again in both Chinese and Korean weaponry. The cane may not be as "modern" as you have been given to believe though no small amount of the cane material in Korean tradition may also owe its existence to DRAJJ (Takeda) tradition, Japanese (jo) and Chinese stick training, and policing methods common at the turn of the 19th century. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
You may want to do some historical digging. The use of the lasso from the steppe horse-riding culture, the snaring weapons and the hooks are documented and found in various art work going back at least as far as the beginning of the Yi dynasty about 1400ad. The classic sword form, BON KUK GUM BUP, can be seen to use a number of techniques which readily bear the interpretation of dealing with circumstances where someone is atempting to snare or encumber the swordsman and various hooked implements turn up over and over again in both Chinese and Korean weaponry. The cane may not be as "modern" as you have been given to believe though no small amount of the cane material in Korean tradition may also owe its existence to DRAJJ (Takeda) tradition, Japanese (jo) and Chinese stick training, and policing methods common at the turn of the 19th century. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
V
Vadim
Guest
Hi Kai. What do you find about the cane masters tapes that aren't impressive. What are the differences between the way Cane masters teaches the cane and the way Hapkido teaches the cane. Just curious.
-Vadim
-Vadim
The Kai
Master of Arts
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First off is the amount of material. Cane masters really only ten or 12, Farbor azoda (sp?) has dozens
Second is the effectiveness/"Flow" of the techniques. Cane masters there are disarm moves that are awkward. Overhead club techniques that are a dangerious to the user. Alot of the blocking work is down against another cane.
Third. this is a personal thing. Canemasters -No stance, weak Technique when you look beyond the cane. If advanced techniques come from a strong set of basics, weapons work should come from strong basics. I this a pety peeve and you not agree
Fourth, again a pet peeve. Mr. Shuey is big on phrases such as This move will shatter the hand, This move will end this person' life etc...
The Canes art nice, but when you add the knurling and especially the pointy ends you have a modified weapon
Todd
Second is the effectiveness/"Flow" of the techniques. Cane masters there are disarm moves that are awkward. Overhead club techniques that are a dangerious to the user. Alot of the blocking work is down against another cane.
Third. this is a personal thing. Canemasters -No stance, weak Technique when you look beyond the cane. If advanced techniques come from a strong set of basics, weapons work should come from strong basics. I this a pety peeve and you not agree
Fourth, again a pet peeve. Mr. Shuey is big on phrases such as This move will shatter the hand, This move will end this person' life etc...
The Canes art nice, but when you add the knurling and especially the pointy ends you have a modified weapon
Todd
V
Vadim
Guest
Thanks for the information Kai. I agree with you that if you dont have a solid foundation with your stance your techniques will be off and not very powerful. Have a good day.
-Vadim
-Vadim
If I have my equivalences correct, the Korean counterpart to the Japanese term "sensei" is "sabumnim" which roughly translates as "father instructor".
I realize this point I've quoted is not your only reason for disliking the Canemasters system, but I don't believe a system can be discounted for the number of techniques it teaches.
I seminared with a grandmaster who said upfront that he teaches 30-40 concepts instead of over 3000 techniques. Good point there.
I haven't studied Canemasters, but it seems to me that the system is left open so it can evolve...to earn a black belt, you must demonstrate original techniques not shown in the videos. I may be going out on a limb here, but it seems that the wisdom in that approach is that no one has all the answers, so why not let people develop techniques that match their experience, background and needs?
Just a humble opinion.
Hi,
Not exactly.
The Korean equivalent of sensei is seonsaeng. The terms are represented by the same Chinese characters. A good translation into English is simply "teacher".
Probably the closest Japanese term to the Korean term sabeom is shihan. These terms are also represented in their respective languages by the same Chinese characters. A good general translation of the Chinese characters into English would be "teacher of teachers", or master.
The particle nim that we typically hear and read attached to sabeom is what the Koreans call an honorific. It denotes respect toward the person you're calling sabeom. If you are addressing, or speaking of, a sabeom among Koreans, and you yourself are not a sabeom, it would be considered quite rude and disrespectful of you to fail to append the particle nim to the word.
Hope this helps.
Rob,
We use the cane in our training. The first weapon is bo staff and that is around green belt and we learn a kata with that. Then as we get higher in rank, around brown belt we are required to do a bow kata with the cane. Then at red belt, right before black we learn a poomse or kata one specifically designed for a cane. We also have a few cane defenses that we do, though they are for the higher ranks as well.
I think the cane is a very applicable weapon and should be practiced. In fact in Taekwondo we use the cane as well, though it is for the black belts only.
Sam
We use the cane in our training. The first weapon is bo staff and that is around green belt and we learn a kata with that. Then as we get higher in rank, around brown belt we are required to do a bow kata with the cane. Then at red belt, right before black we learn a poomse or kata one specifically designed for a cane. We also have a few cane defenses that we do, though they are for the higher ranks as well.
I think the cane is a very applicable weapon and should be practiced. In fact in Taekwondo we use the cane as well, though it is for the black belts only.
Sam
