The big disconnect. Or a follow up from Aikido vs MMA.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by drop bear, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So Aikido guy sparred a MMA guy and got handled. Anyway he has then gone out and interviewed some top martial artists who can meld the two in a quest to find out just what happened. Why it happend and mabye how to fix it.

    I have mentioned evidence based training, Courting loss and, as in the title, the disconnect between what you think is workings in training and what actually works.

    And for the same reason. I came out of these traditional based methods and self defence methods as well. Encountered the same issues and basically came to these same conclusions.

    Anyway here is the vid.



     
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  2. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    Spot on...Roy dean
     
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  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    A good video - thanks for posting this, DB. Though they are from a different art in the Aikido world, they express some of what I went through, and some of the ways I had to change my training along the way - some of which I'm still working through. Dean makes a great point (one you've made before), that training has to allow for failure. I think courting failure is something my early Aikido training simply didn't do much of.

    I really like Dean's expression of what he likes so much about BJJ. A lot of good community in that art. And I've seen a lot of the ego and desperation to define he talks about in his Aikido experience.
     
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  4. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    In our hapkido class, we go over the techniques and we "tank" for each other, but then we do sparring. Sparring in our classes is where one guy "attacks" the other, and must be submitted. We don't tank for each other during this phase, and half the time the person who is supposed to be defending is forced to tap out. (I say half the time, but when it's me, it's more like 80% of the time).

    I do agree with the general premise that if you don't practice against a live opponent, it can be very hard to succeed. That's why most of these "TMA Grandmaster vs. MMA" fights end in the MMA guy just clobbering the TMA guy right off the bat. The TMA guy might have great technique, but as soon as he gets hit once, the fight is over, because he's not used to getting hit. He's put all his XP into Dexterity and none into Health, so one hit and it's over.

    It also sounds to me like Roy isn't saying that Aikido is bad, and I'm not trying to say that (insert TMA here) is bad. But if you want martial competency, you have to be able to take that hit, and you have to be able to react, instead of expecting your plan to work.

    Going back to our hapkido, the video says you need to have plan A, plan B, and plan C. I do believe my hapkido training (what I've received of it, anyway, I'm still not even halfway to black belt) gives us these options. Hapkido has very similar techniques to aikido, to my knowledge, so I could see that the techniques taught should work, if you practice them with respect to reality.
     
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  5. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    i am at work and cant type out an entire response so ill will have to break it into a few segments.

    Aikido could benefit from looking at their methodology of training. do i think it should be more like BJJ? NO. BJJ is what it is , Aikido is what it is. Aikido should not be BJJ. in many ways BJJ suffers from many of the same pitfalls as Aikido.
    the first question to be asked in any self defense system is, what is the desired outcome or goal ? unfortunately this brings us back around again to the street vs competition thing,,that everyone hates to discuss because we have to define the question of "does it work". well the context determines whether it works or not in that context. Aikido does not work at all in a competition setting. should it? i do not think it has to work in competition but it should work with some resistance and pressure testing.

    if we use a context of a potentially deadly violent assault, what is the desired goal for the defender?
     
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  6. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    yes its very much a circulatory argument, that we do over and over again.
    an experienced never mind good ring fighter ( of what ever discipline will usually beat a tma, just as they will beat most people who arnt ringfighters, that is just the way it is, th skills of doing it live and the experience of doing it against someone trying to take your head off , can't be replicated with a bit of live sparring against an oppoinent of dubious skills themselves.
    But there is the problem, not many tma types want to get beaten up three times a week in order to be good fighters at the end. And that is largely what the requirement is to get to the elevated level. Fight and loose a lot to get good. If i was 25 i might give it a go, but it takes me to long to heal apart from the fact that I'm always going to loss. Against a trained 25 yo old fighter.

    so you are left with what we have now, a bit of liveish sparring wit h big pads and a lot of practise, you will only get so good that way! Quite. Possibly good enough to defend yourself most of the time against most people, but always going to lose against a half decent mmaer, boxer or bbjer. And there doesn't seem a solution to that, just varrying degrees of not to bad and a lot of not good enough
     
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  7. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    for myself and my own training, in a violent confrontation my goal is to exit the danger zone. the more prevalent concept seems to be to "beat" the attacker. this CAN work, but will it work, is a matter of percentages. i believe the goal in a violent situation should remain constant across incidents, different situations and time. things like multiple attackers, weapons and others that need your protection should not change the goal. for myself the best goal is the exit the danger zone. now how i do that ,, well sometimes i may need to fight other times maybe not.
    with the idea of getting out of the danger zone rather than beating someone up, this changes the way Aikido may and may not be effective VS BJJ. perhaps in many instances it may be a better option.
     
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  8. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    it may, but only if it will work , that the down side of a lot of tma, you only know if the techniques are sound and or you you have the skills to use them in real time, when its to late to change your mind and take up bjj instead
     
  9. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Interesting video I came across last week. He talks about the need for realistic attacks, but also talks about the change of dynamics in a sparring situation where both people know what is happening and a fight where neither person knows the other person's abilities. It is an interesting viewpoint that brings up some good points to think about.

    Just thought I would throw it there for discussion.
     
  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    many people seem to insist that , it only works, if it works in an MMA resistance type setting. for some things yes and other things no.
    people get confused on the construct of "what works" if i am attacked by a guy wielding a knife in a convenience store, am i better off doing an aikido move where i slip the strike/ dodge it and run, or am i better off getting inside the attackers arc of motion and go for a double leg takedown and try for an arm bar? i would go for the run every time without a doubt. but you can prove out the idea that the double leg into an arm bar will out preform the kokyu nage in a one on one competitive resistant roll session. context is everything.
     
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  11. DaveB

    DaveB 3rd Black Belt

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    The guy said it all when he said, "technique is technique, the problem is in the training."
     
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  12. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    that is correct. but it is more than just methodology as Roy Dean suggests. behavioral patterns are actually more important than technique when the context is a violent interaction.
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    only if the aikido move doesn't result in you being knifed in the throat, other wise staying very still and handing over you wallet if asked sounds a much better strategy.
     
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  14. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master Black Belt

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    Toby Threadgill wrote a very interesting essay a number of years back about assumptions in the martial arts. It seems pretty relevant to this thread and I feel that it's worth reading, if only for the chuckle factor.

    Assumptions
     
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  15. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    You are changing the situation. I said nothing about being robbed or asked for a wallet. I said ,being attacked by a knife wielding assailant.
    However if the best option is compliance, then BJJ will be just as worthless as Aikido.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    no compliance is better than using aikido and being stabbed in the throat. Bjj is better than compliance, as long as you don't get stabbed
     
  17. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    i like Lenny's aikido. i just have a hard time listening to his verbal diatribes.
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    In some ways Hapkido (as I've seen it - never trained in it), is closer to NGA (and probably Yoshinkan Aikido) than to most of Ueshiba's Aikido. I like the approach you describe here - in some ways, it's close to where I'm heading with my approach. I've become more a fan of failure late in my training, as I've learned more from it.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Too long for our current data availability - I'll try to remember to watch when I'm near a WiFi source. I'm interested in seeing if this mirrors one of the issues I've posted about in the past, where sparring against your own art takes away techniques that are more available against folks who don't know what you are going to do.
     

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