Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have finally located a legitimate kenjutsu school where I feel comfortable training. As some of you may know, I separated with my old school, Korean Martial Arts, Inc. in June due to school politics.

I visited a school last night, Bushikai (http://www.bushikai.com/) in Frederick Maryland. A friend of mine mentioned them to me, saying that I should seriously look into it. I did, and I was very pleased with the sensei and the dojo.

The ryu taught is Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Hyohou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshinsho_Jigen_Ryu). It is a bit of a distance, but still under an hour each direction. Here is the official website of the ryu: http://www.jigenryu.jp/

In any case, I am very excited about the opportunity to study a genuine koryu art.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Daniel,

Interesting... There's a few things that caught my eye in the link you provided, though.

The Bushikai group themselves actually seem to be a Bujinkan offshoot (the same terminology, such as "Shidoshi-ho", "Dakentaijutsu", "Biken", and many more), who are then applying their own methods of grading and ranking, which doesn't quite gel with Koryu methods or similar, as well as some rather odd instances, such as the use of Katori Shinto Ryu terminology for two sword (Ryotojutsu), the misuse of Yarijutsu (not really a term used), and so on, all of which show some issues in the understanding of that side of things... but that's by the by if you're not engaging in the rest of their curriculum. I didn't see any mention of where their Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu comes from, or who's teaching it, their ranking in the Ryu, or anything similar, nor any mention of them on the Hombu website you listed (although that could just be that the site hasn't been updated, and this is a new addition for them). They shouldn't have any issue telling you, though.

I'm thinking that it isn't the complete curriculum, as the complete curriculum is what is referred to as a Sogo Bujutsu system, including a form of Jujutsu, Sojutsu (spear), and Nagamakijutsu (long handled sword), as well as the Kenjutsu and Iai curriculums.

So you know, there are a few different systems that use the term "Jigen Ryu", such as the Yakumaru Jigen Ryu, probably the most famous/infamous system using the name, Ryushin Jigen Ryu, a more modern offshoot from Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu themselves. The connection in terms of technique and a number of other aspects aren't much more than coincidence, so if you have people assuming you scream and hit bundles of sticks, that's the Yakumaru line. The Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu has a wider curriculum, including some of the most flashy/dynamic Iai found in Koryu systems... all in all, a fantastic system.

Here's some examples of each to give some reference points:

Yakumaru Jigen Ryu (often just referred to as Jigen Ryu)

Same again, showing their standard training tool of Yokogi.

More yokogi training, and their long sword methods (Odachi)

And a form of Tategi training.

And this one is just because it's a phenomenal clip.... hell, you try it!

This is Ryushin Jigen Ryu, closer to the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. This is a little slower than what you usually see from the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu guys, with some nice Tameshigiri at the end.

Ah, now, this is nice. Some training drills (not combative waza, it must be said), and some Iai from the Ryushin Jigen Ryu.

Now we're getting to it. This is the line that you'll apparently be learning, demonstrated by the head of the system.

And some of the paired forms.

Here you can see some of the Bojutsu near the end, quite interesting as well.

Okay, I just really like this one...

Just a word of warning, you may want to lower the sound on your computer before watching the first few clips...

As you can see, there is a fair difference between Jigen Ryu (Yakumaru) and Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I wish you all the best with it!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, not interested in the rest of the schools curriculum; even if I were, time commitments would prevent me from taking part. The dojo cho is Sensei Harry Mackenzie. He said that the curriculum being taught is not the full Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, but only the kenjutsu and iai, which is really what I am interested in.

He also indicated that they are using a kyu/dan grading system, but that that is not used in Japan. I believe that he had mentioned having had association with Genbukan at some point in the past.

As far as what I saw of their swordwork, it looked good and looked very clean.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, Genbukan? Odd... the use of the term "Shidoshi (ho)" is uniquely Bujinkan.

That is, as I said, by the by though. In terms of the swordsmanship, yeah, Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu is a great system! I'm sure you're going to love it... pity that they don't teach the rest of the Ryu, but they may include that later. It seems that most of the international representatives only really deal with the Ken and Iai portions at present though.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

He may not have been Genbukan; I do remember that we got onto talking about how different organizations handle things and he mentioned ninjutsu organizations. I think Genbukan stuck in my head because it is mentioned less frequently. Now that I think about it, I think he did say that he was Bujinkan.

As for the rest of the ryu, it would be cool to learn, but right now, all that they are offering is ken and iai and that is both what I am most interested in and about all that I would have time to do. Hoping my time frees up a bit by summer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And this coming Monday, I go back. I am very much looking forward to it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hi Daniel,

Interesting... There's a few things that caught my eye in the link you provided, though.

The Bushikai group themselves actually seem to be a Bujinkan offshoot (the same terminology, such as "Shidoshi-ho", "Dakentaijutsu", "Biken", and many more), who are then applying their own methods of grading and ranking, which doesn't quite gel with Koryu methods or similar, as well as some rather odd instances, such as the use of Katori Shinto Ryu terminology for two sword (Ryotojutsu), the misuse of Yarijutsu (not really a term used), and so on, all of which show some issues in the understanding of that side of things... but that's by the by if you're not engaging in the rest of their curriculum. I didn't see any mention of where their Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu comes from, or who's teaching it, their ranking in the Ryu, or anything similar, nor any mention of them on the Hombu website you listed (although that could just be that the site hasn't been updated, and this is a new addition for them). They shouldn't have any issue telling you, though.

I'm thinking that it isn't the complete curriculum, as the complete curriculum is what is referred to as a Sogo Bujutsu system, including a form of Jujutsu, Sojutsu (spear), and Nagamakijutsu (long handled sword), as well as the Kenjutsu and Iai curriculums.

So you know, there are a few different systems that use the term "Jigen Ryu", such as the Yakumaru Jigen Ryu, probably the most famous/infamous system using the name, Ryushin Jigen Ryu, a more modern offshoot from Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu themselves. The connection in terms of technique and a number of other aspects aren't much more than coincidence, so if you have people assuming you scream and hit bundles of sticks, that's the Yakumaru line. The Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu has a wider curriculum, including some of the most flashy/dynamic Iai found in Koryu systems... all in all, a fantastic system.

Here's some examples of each to give some reference points:

Yakumaru Jigen Ryu (often just referred to as Jigen Ryu)

Same again, showing their standard training tool of Yokogi.

More yokogi training, and their long sword methods (Odachi)

And a form of Tategi training.

And this one is just because it's a phenomenal clip.... hell, you try it!

This is Ryushin Jigen Ryu, closer to the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. This is a little slower than what you usually see from the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu guys, with some nice Tameshigiri at the end.

Ah, now, this is nice. Some training drills (not combative waza, it must be said), and some Iai from the Ryushin Jigen Ryu.

Now we're getting to it. This is the line that you'll apparently be learning, demonstrated by the head of the system.

And some of the paired forms.

Here you can see some of the Bojutsu near the end, quite interesting as well.

Okay, I just really like this one...

Just a word of warning, you may want to lower the sound on your computer before watching the first few clips...

As you can see, there is a fair difference between Jigen Ryu (Yakumaru) and Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I wish you all the best with it!

Okay, I finally was able to watch all of the videos. The first three left me.... underwhelmed to say the least, the first two in particular. In the first video: What the heck is with the hunching over, convulsing and taking baby steps while doing what looks like flicks with a ruler and shouting like Xena??? I thought maybe they were trying to inject some humor at first, but it soon became apparent that he was serious. Bladework was... unique.

Video two was a training exercise and aside from these guys looking like they're very hardcore and have a very strong kiriotoshi, I didn't get much from it.

Video three looked more respectable, and I could see more of how they were engaging the lower body, but when they struck the floor repeatedly with their 'sword' during kata because the other guy moved, it just looked like lack of control to me.

Video four was more like what I am used to seeing, but they did that convulsing ruler swat thing too.

Video five... well... lifting heavy object and essentially letting it down on a bundle of sticks did not impress me, though the fact that the guy is not of large stature and looks like he's in his seventies did.

Perhaps I'm missing some vital clue?

Video seven looked good, but it is unfortunate that the angle of the camera was not more advantageous.

The remainder of the videos were very enjoyable and I really appreciate you taking the time to post them. Video 8 was the one that interested me most, both because the technique looked excellent and because it is the style that I am preparing to study.

Please explain video one to me. I originally was going to make some less than flattering observations of it, but not being familiar with the style, I will withold comment.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, I finally was able to watch all of the videos. The first three left me.... underwhelmed to say the least, the first two in particular. In the first video: What the heck is with the hunching over, convulsing and taking baby steps while doing what looks like flicks with a ruler and shouting like Xena??? I thought maybe they were trying to inject some humor at first, but it soon became apparent that he was serious. Bladework was... unique.

Ah, there's often a lot more than seen from the outside, though, Daniel...

The reason I posted those videos was to give you an idea of what many in the Koryu world may immediately think when you mention Jigen Ryu, as that is Jigen Ryu. To give you some perspective, though, you're not alone in your initial take on the Ryu's methods... in the first Koryu Bujutsu book Dianne Skoss described how the "Field Guide" came into being. It started with herself and some others attending a range of Embu (demonstrations), and taking basic notes to try to remember and get a handle on which Ryu was which, ranging from "Muto Sensei does Yagyu Shingan Ryu" to "the women in the Furisode Kimono are doing Yoshin Ryu". One interesting comment is "The Ryu with the 'crazy Granny' technique is Jigen Ryu"....

Oh, here's something fun that's been put up recently to give an idea of some of these Embu. Go to www.emptymindfilms.com, they have a seven minute clip of the Meiji Jingu Embu, showing quite a range of systems, from ones where the actions are obvious in their movements, and others which seem more, well, odd. Gorgeous footage, though, highly recommended.

Video two was a training exercise and aside from these guys looking like they're very hardcore and have a very strong kiriotoshi, I didn't get much from it.

The history of a system gives it it's philosophy, which is then expressed in it's waza and training methods. With regard to the Jigen Ryu, they have a higher focus on conditioning than many others. What clips like this do is show you what the primary focus of the system is. Oh, and "a very strong kiriotoshi"? Ha, that's an understatement, my friend!

Video three looked more respectable, and I could see more of how they were engaging the lower body, but when they struck the floor repeatedly with their 'sword' during kata because the other guy moved, it just looked like lack of control to me.

Yeah, that's not a lack of control.... for the control aspect of this Ryu, look to the kata where they stop on the opponents forearm or wrist, the sticks used (not bokken, but we'll get to that) are rather heavy, so that takes quite a lot of control.

Video four was more like what I am used to seeing, but they did that convulsing ruler swat thing too.

Right. A bit of background to this Ryu, then.

The Jigen Ryu was developed in the Satsuma area, an area known for incredibly fierce warriors... and the Jigen Ryu were among the fiercest. The teachings of Jigen Ryu basically say that a second strike isn't even worth considering, as you would have killed them with your first one. In fact, they focused so strongly on the initial strike, making it as strong as they could, that enemy warriors were often found killed on the battlefield with a sword embedded in their foreheads. Catch is, it was their own sword, and it was the back of it that was driven into their skulls. The force of the Satsuma and Jigen strikes would literally drive their own swords back, with the Jigen strike continuing through. As a result, conditioning striking drills such as the use of tategi (upright targets) and yokogi (striking targets on their sides) would be used up to 1,000 times a day, striking down with kiriotoshi from Tombo no Kamae (the very high "Hasso" Kamae, literally meaning "Dragonfly posture"), as well as having drills of running through a series of sticks put in the ground, striking each down to the ground. The strikes to the ground that you noted are representative of cutting someone completely in half.

The Hombu dojo of the Jigen Ryu actually has no floor, being just dirt. That allows them to change the position of striking targets and upright sticks as required. Additionally, you may have noticed that for the most part "proper" bokken/bokuto aren't being used. This is because the conditioning methods of Jigen Ryu are so severe that training items are broken regularly, so rather than waste time carving properly shaped weapons, they just use heavy, solid sticks of approximately the right length. When it comes to the "crazy granny" technique, the idea behind it is to overwhelm an opponent so they are unable to respond or raise their sword. Once you have them completely overwhelmed, you move in for the finish. That's why the kodachi method targets the forearm, and the tachi method targets the shoulders.

In short, whether it's understood or not, these are not the guys you want to face. It was said that if you ever met a Satsuma/Jigen swordsman, don't bother with any Reiho (bowing, etiquette), as they would have already killed you while you were performing it. These guys don't mess around.

Video five... well... lifting heavy object and essentially letting it down on a bundle of sticks did not impress me, though the fact that the guy is not of large stature and looks like he's in his seventies did.

Perhaps I'm missing some vital clue?

Ha, as I said, mate, you try it!

Video seven looked good, but it is unfortunate that the angle of the camera was not more advantageous.

Yeah, I put that one up because it's a good look at a range of the technical methods, even though it's not exactly the same as what you'll be learning (close, though).

The remainder of the videos were very enjoyable and I really appreciate you taking the time to post them. Video 8 was the one that interested me most, both because the technique looked excellent and because it is the style that I am preparing to study.

Yeah, that's a nice one. That, and the remaining, were put there because they are the system you'll be learning. All in all, it was to show some of the variance that can exist in seemingly related systems.

Please explain video one to me. I originally was going to make some less than flattering observations of it, but not being familiar with the style, I will withold comment.

Hopefully my comments earlier will help you understand what you saw a little better... but so you know, you would hardly be the first to offer less than flattering comments about this Ryu-ha, or others. What always needs to be taken into account when looking at clips is the context itself. For example, the following clip often gets some, uh, interesting looks. Even the person who put it up thinks that he's looking at amateurs....

What this actually is is a form of conditioning training from the Yagyu Shingan Ryu known as Mifuri. In this exercise you repeat the individual actions from their kihon kata over and over, as fast and powerfully as you can, in a form of conditioning for your cardio, respiratory, and spirit. The white belts are not indicative of rank, as the Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a dominantly armoured system, and when wearing armour, the obi worn was traditionally always white. Some of the favourite actions of these guys is to pick someone up, and drop them straight down onto their heads. Again, a very serious system with a misunderstood training practice.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah, there's often a lot more than seen from the outside, though, Daniel...

The reason I posted those videos was to give you an idea of what many in the Koryu world may immediately think when you mention Jigen Ryu, as that is Jigen Ryu. To give you some perspective, though, you're not alone in your initial take on the Ryu's methods... in the first Koryu Bujutsu book Dianne Skoss described how the "Field Guide" came into being. It started with herself and some others attending a range of Embu (demonstrations), and taking basic notes to try to remember and get a handle on which Ryu was which, ranging from "Muto Sensei does Yagyu Shingan Ryu" to "the women in the Furisode Kimono are doing Yoshin Ryu". One interesting comment is "The Ryu with the 'crazy Granny' technique is Jigen Ryu".....

Oh, here's something fun that's been put up recently to give an idea of some of these Embu. Go to www.emptymindfilms.com, they have a seven minute clip of the Meiji Jingu Embu, showing quite a range of systems, from ones where the actions are obvious in their movements, and others which seem more, well, odd. Gorgeous footage, though, highly recommended.

The history of a system gives it it's philosophy, which is then expressed in it's waza and training methods. With regard to the Jigen Ryu, they have a higher focus on conditioning than many others. What clips like this do is show you what the primary focus of the system is. Oh, and "a very strong kiriotoshi"? Ha, that's an understatement, my friend! .

Yeah, that's not a lack of control.... for the control aspect of this Ryu, look to the kata where they stop on the opponents forearm or wrist, the sticks used (not bokken, but we'll get to that) are rather heavy, so that takes quite a lot of control.

Regardless of the strength of the cut, if you swat the ground, you are seriously wide open. I watched the videos and that they have control is evident; but swatting the ground just screams, "hit me in the head" or "try out your tsuki!"

I realize that it is a training demo and not a representation of an actual sword fight, so I chalk it up as a matter of taste.

Right. A bit of background to this Ryu, then.

The Jigen Ryu was developed in the Satsuma area, an area known for incredibly fierce warriors... and the Jigen Ryu were among the fiercest. The teachings of Jigen Ryu basically say that a second strike isn't even worth considering, as you would have killed them with your first one. In fact, they focused so strongly on the initial strike, making it as strong as they could, that enemy warriors were often found killed on the battlefield with a sword embedded in their foreheads. Catch is, it was their own sword, and it was the back of it that was driven into their skulls. The force of the Satsuma and Jigen strikes would literally drive their own swords back, with the Jigen strike continuing through. As a result, conditioning striking drills such as the use of tategi (upright targets) and yokogi (striking targets on their sides) would be used up to 1,000 times a day, striking down with kiriotoshi from Tombo no Kamae (the very high "Hasso" Kamae, literally meaning "Dragonfly posture"), as well as having drills of running through a series of sticks put in the ground, striking each down to the ground. The strikes to the ground that you noted are representative of cutting someone completely in half.

The Hombu dojo of the Jigen Ryu actually has no floor, being just dirt. That allows them to change the position of striking targets and upright sticks as required. Additionally, you may have noticed that for the most part "proper" bokken/bokuto aren't being used. This is because the conditioning methods of Jigen Ryu are so severe that training items are broken regularly, so rather than waste time carving properly shaped weapons, they just use heavy, solid sticks of approximately the right length. When it comes to the "crazy granny" technique, the idea behind it is to overwhelm an opponent so they are unable to respond or raise their sword. Once you have them completely overwhelmed, you move in for the finish. That's why the kodachi method targets the forearm, and the tachi method targets the shoulders.

In short, whether it's understood or not, these are not the guys you want to face. It was said that if you ever met a Satsuma/Jigen swordsman, don't bother with any Reiho (bowing, etiquette), as they would have already killed you while you were performing it. These guys don't mess around.

Presumably, nobody else bothered with it either unless they were training with a partner, so a lack of etiquette is not particularly remarkable. The emphasis on conditioning certainly is a standout. I have no doubt that swordsmen of Setsuma were fierce and certainly more than effective. If I gave that impression, that was not my intent.

Ha, as I said, mate, you try it!

I have. Definitely builds character. And I'm not bragging; the guy in the video is probably a foot shorter than I am and probably weighs a lot less too; I'm about 6'4" and over two hundred pounds, but more importantly, under fifty. The guy in the vid looks like he's seventy. He certainly has my respect!

Hopefully my comments earlier will help you understand what you saw a little better... but so you know, you would hardly be the first to offer less than flattering comments about this Ryu-ha, or others.

Wasn't so much a comment about the Ryu-ha, but about the videos. Perhaps I was not clear in that. As I said earlier, I was witholding comment until receiving clarification. Just as people who are on the outside looking in at WTF taekwondo have less than flattering remarks about it, having practiced it, I can say that most of those remarks reflect a great deal of ignorance, with the rest being a matter of personal taste.

You gave me the vital clue that I was missing; many thanks!

What always needs to be taken into account when looking at clips is the context itself. For example, the following clip often gets some, uh, interesting looks. Even the person who put it up thinks that he's looking at amateurs....

What this actually is is a form of conditioning training from the Yagyu Shingan Ryu known as Mifuri. In this exercise you repeat the individual actions from their kihon kata over and over, as fast and powerfully as you can, in a form of conditioning for your cardio, respiratory, and spirit. The white belts are not indicative of rank, as the Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a dominantly armoured system, and when wearing armour, the obi worn was traditionally always white. Some of the favourite actions of these guys is to pick someone up, and drop them straight down onto their heads. Again, a very serious system with a misunderstood training practice.

I figure that training practices are just that: training practices. If you know what the goal of the practice is, then most training practices make a good deal more sense.

I really appreciate the info on Jigen Ryu!

By the way, I will be going for my first formal class of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu this evening. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[pgsmith]

What this actually is is a form of conditioning training from the Yagyu Shingan Ryu known as Mifuri. In this exercise you repeat the individual actions from their kihon kata over and over, as fast and powerfully as you can, in a form of conditioning for your cardio, respiratory, and spirit. The white belts are not indicative of rank, as the Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a dominantly armoured system, and when wearing armour, the obi worn was traditionally always white. Some of the favourite actions of these guys is to pick someone up, and drop them straight down onto their heads. Again, a very serious system with a misunderstood training practice.

Thanks for that Chris, it was very interesting. I hadn't seen it before. Pretty obvious to me that those were some fairly experienced practicioners because of the fact that their movements, although very vigorous, were extremely precise. It was pretty darned impressive really.

 

[Chris Parker]

Regardless of the strength of the cut, if you swat the ground, you are seriously wide open. I watched the videos and that they have control is evident; but swatting the ground just screams, "hit me in the head" or "try out your tsuki!"

I realize that it is a training demo and not a representation of an actual sword fight, so I chalk it up as a matter of taste.

You could consider the primary kamae of Jigen Ryu (Tombo no Kamae, a very high form of Hasso) rather open as well... but when it comes to the striking the ground, the idea is that there isn't someone left to take advantage of any opening, ha! Additionally, with the Jigen Ryu (and other Satsuma systems) more frequent usage in combat than many other Ryu, with the invasion of the RyuKyu Kingdom, various Korean campaigns, the infamous Satsuma Rebellion, and more, you could assume that the system has a good idea of the effects of adrenaline under those circumstances. Some of the things that adrenaline does is restrict your motion, so training a slightly overdone action (knowing that it will be a "smaller" action in actual use) is a good idea. It's also a very gross motor action, which again is what would be needed under those conditions.

Finally, what I see is that the approach of the Jigen practitioner is rather effective at maintaining distance, forcing the enemies back, basically by scaring the life out of them, which doesn't leave them as open as might be thought.

An interesting parallel is a story told in the Takamatsuden (X-Kan) groups, of a fellow student with the last generation headmaster (Takamatsu) when he was a student himself at Toda Sensei's Shinden Fudo Dojo. The way the story goes is that there was a visit from a couple of Sekiguchi Ryu students, who were wanting to test their skills. So they came and made an official (friendly) challenge, which was accepted. As the most senior student at the time, Takamatsu would be expected to take on the first challenger, however a man in his 30's, junior in rank and experience to Takamatsu, said that he wanted to try the challengers first. Toda and Takamatsu agreed, and the elder gentlemen stepped forward against his opponent, a twenty-something person of a high degree of skill in the Sekiguchi Ryu. After the initial bows and formalities, the bout was to begin.

It should be noted that not only was the Toda-dojo student older, he was a big guy, with a "fierce" face, including a large scar across it. He stepped forward, with a fierce kiai and a maddened look on his face, looking for all the world like he was going to kill the Sekiguchi practitioner. Before he knew what he was doing, the challenger was backing up and surrendering, without any physical aspect or fight. When asked why he gave up so easily, he said that the Toda students' fierce kiai and spirit completely overwhelmed him. That's kinda what it was like to go up against Jigen members....

Presumably, nobody else bothered with it either unless they were training with a partner, so a lack of etiquette is not particularly remarkable. The emphasis on conditioning certainly is a standout. I have no doubt that swordsmen of Setsuma were fierce and certainly more than effective. If I gave that impression, that was not my intent.

For duels, and challenges, reiho was standard procedure. Even in earlier forms of battlefield combat, formal challenges would be issued and accepted. As a result, the comment that the Satsuma swordsmen didn't bother with it lead them to be considered far less refined than warriors from other regions... but damn were they effective!

I have. Definitely builds character. And I'm not bragging; the guy in the video is probably a foot shorter than I am and probably weighs a lot less too; I'm about 6'4" and over two hundred pounds, but more importantly, under fifty. The guy in the vid looks like he's seventy. He certainly has my respect!

I'm talking about the entire action, raising up to Tombo no Kamae, the drop with the legs as well as the body and arms, and so on. It's really not an easy thing to do. If you have tried something like it, though, you'd understand that, wouldn't you? So yeah, he definitely gets respect, from both of us.

Wasn't so much a comment about the Ryu-ha, but about the videos. Perhaps I was not clear in that. As I said earlier, I was witholding comment until receiving clarification. Just as people who are on the outside looking in at WTF taekwondo have less than flattering remarks about it, having practiced it, I can say that most of those remarks reflect a great deal of ignorance, with the rest being a matter of personal taste.

You gave me the vital clue that I was missing; many thanks!

My pleasure.

I figure that training practices are just that: training practices. If you know what the goal of the practice is, then most training practices make a good deal more sense.

I really appreciate the info on Jigen Ryu!

And again, my pleasure.

By the way, I will be going for my first formal class of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu this evening. I'll let you know how it goes.

Fantastic. I wish you all the best with it.

Thanks for that Chris, it was very interesting. I hadn't seen it before. Pretty obvious to me that those were some fairly experienced practicioners because of the fact that their movements, although very vigorous, were extremely precise. It was pretty darned impressive really.

Most of the time it's posted it's thought to be a joke. On MAP there was a thread started in the "Comedy" section where someone posted that clip, and everyone was guessing "supermarket-tantrum ryu?" or the like... until I came in and pointed out that it was legit. All the postings of it I've found on youtube are "hey, check this out, it's hilarious!", or similar. Pity, really.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Update: I went to class this evening and thoroughly enjoyed it. We worked on batto/noto for about half the class and then on a hoke (they don't call them kata apparently) called Tensho nuke uchi (if memory serves). Both things that I can practice at home easily, as I will not be able to make another class until January due to various time commitments. I definitely am looking forward to the next class.

Incidentally, when I first visited, the sensei was demonstrating some of what they do and he did use Tombo no kamae.

This evening, sensei remarked that my posture was good, which is one thing from kendo that helps. Positioning is different though; no squaring off like we do in kendo.

 

[Chris Parker]

Very cool. In terms of the terminology, different Ryu will all have their own unique twist on it, without seeing the kanji I'm not sure of the implications of "hoke" as opposed to "kata", but it's possibly "methods of the family" (ho meaning methods, ke referring to family, or house). Then again, looking around, I see the term occasionally used, so it could even be the categorisation of a certain section of the curriculum, or for all of it. Tensho nuke uchi is most likely something along the lines of "initial heavenly draw and cut", meaning one of the first things to learn to start to get into the Ryu's methods... hardly surprising that that would be one of your first lessons! Ah, the semantics of various Ryu-ha, confusion and insight all at once....

Yeah, I'm sure you'll find a range of differences. I find that, when looking at different systems, focusing on the similarities is not a good idea, as it leads to confusion between the systems and stops you actually getting skill in that area, instead only being a generic practitioner. Instead, look to the differences, as that will get you deeper into it quicker.

All in all, very cool.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ho and the Korean word, beop, share the same kanji/hanja and mean method. Ke I was unfamiliar with. Sensei indicated that they used the term hoke instead of kata because kata implies just a fixed pattern whereas hoke implies methodology. I'm going to have to ask for a terminology sheet at some point. Fortunately, I am fairly well versed in Japanese budo terminology, so I was able to follow along when he used Japanese.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hopefully my comments earlier will help you understand what you saw a little better... but so you know, you would hardly be the first to offer less than flattering comments about this Ryu-ha, or others. What always needs to be taken into account when looking at clips is the context itself. For example, the following clip often gets some, uh, interesting looks. Even the person who put it up thinks that he's looking at amateurs....

What this actually is is a form of conditioning training from the Yagyu Shingan Ryu known as Mifuri. In this exercise you repeat the individual actions from their kihon kata over and over, as fast and powerfully as you can, in a form of conditioning for your cardio, respiratory, and spirit. The white belts are not indicative of rank, as the Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a dominantly armoured system, and when wearing armour, the obi worn was traditionally always white. Some of the favourite actions of these guys is to pick someone up, and drop them straight down onto their heads. Again, a very serious system with a misunderstood training practice.

Regarding this particular video, I am generally of the opinion that conditioning methods that are not readily obvious should not be put up on Youtube. People don't know what they're looking at and it becomes some kind of parody of the ryu in the minds of the uneducated viewer.

 

[pgsmith]

Glad you enjoyed the class. I know several people that attended the last seminar when the Jigen ryu soke went to Virginia (last spring?) and they had nothing but good things to say it.

Regarding this particular video, I am generally of the opinion that conditioning methods that are not readily obvious should not be put up on Youtube. People don't know what they're looking at and it becomes some kind of parody of the ryu in the minds of the uneducated viewer.

I agree with that completely. Then again, I also think that 99% of what is on YouTube shouldn't be publicly displayed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One of the facets of Youtube that has both a positive and a negative effect is that any public performance needs to be of high quality because anyone can post anything to Youtube. The positive is that it forces people to be more careful about what they choose to include in public demonstrations, lest it end up on Youtube. The negative factor is that most people don't think in those terms, so things that really don't belong on Youtube.... end up on Youtube.

 

[Sanke]

I both agree and disagree, regarding YouTube. It's true that people jump to conclusions and usually judge quite harshly, without even knowing what they're looking at, so in that way, YouTube can put out allot of false ideas.

On the other hand, though, without those people, I probably wouldn't have seen half the videos I have now, and even if this particular one was put up as a joke, I got to see a practice of a ryu I would've otherwise been unaware of, so that's a win in my eyes.

I think the problem is more that people are very quick to label things one way or the other, when they are outside their knowledge or experience. The fact that it's being put out there, I don't really see as a bad thing, it's just lacking the context to understand it. Though I doubt that's going to change any time soon. :lol:

 

[Chris Parker]

Regarding this particular video, I am generally of the opinion that conditioning methods that are not readily obvious should not be put up on Youtube. People don't know what they're looking at and it becomes some kind of parody of the ryu in the minds of the uneducated viewer.

This particular clip is one and a half minutes out of an 82 minute DVD, and comes after the kata have been shown in detail, the kihon explained, the kamae and footwork shown, the applications done, the more technical issues explained, and the methods of receiving the movements done. Then this is shown as a method of conditioning after all that has been done in your training. To give you an idea, the chapter list of the DVD has six major sections, with the third being dedicated to training methods, and the Mifuri section being the fifth of eight sections. It's about 50 minutes into the DVD.

The issue is that it's taken completely out of context, and put up with no explanation. And that's just a damn shame, as it leads to these problems.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which is the point that I was making. One and a half minutes out of eighty two... and the person who put it up certainly must have had the rest of the DVD and thus knew what he/she was putting up. A shame indeed.