Tenjindo

[Blind]

Mybe I should clarify a little, I am not trying to say you aren`t skillfull, it just sounds like you were talking the muscle there, and I did wander around a bit much, basically to call people weak is a matter of opinion(though some people may be more right than others), and you may be right, but really is it necessary? Maybe you are speaking about them as people, and not of their skill or power, but if thats the case then why write it in public? Do you need to defend your ego that much? A person who is confident usually doesn`t resort to that kind of thing, and you do seem very confident. Anyway I re read my last post and it sounds a little attacking which its not meant to, I just think comments like the last one are not needed.That said-

One other thing I was thinking, do you really think you give your students the ability to survive? I get the impression you are quite a natural when it comes to the combat thing, but is that something that can be taught? I have wondered about this myself, some people who may not even have martial arts training, you can tell that at all costs its better to go around, others(and we have all met people like this) who may be very highly graded you stop and think, that guy has no idea(and its not just the Bujinkan-I am not debating rank) You know what I mean? I just wonder what your take on this is, I agree that people can through training and hardship become skilled and very capable of looking after themselves, but I am talking about the kind of person who was born for it, and I guess that could be a topic in itself. I come from a reasonably sheltered upbringing living in the country, a fight there generally stops when a man goes down(though worse happens), however in the city where know one knows you the limits of decency get lifted, a guy goes down, you don`t know him, why stop kicking?? I am not that sort of person but they are out there, and in my training the first thing I got told was no martial art will help if your unconscious. I am just wondering how you feel that a person can through what I imagine is really quite safe training you can instill the presence of mind required to survive?? Again I will stress I am not commenting on you as a martial artist nor anyone else, I am not qualified, just wondering what you think. Also the questions while directed at Ralph can be commented on by anyone...

 

[Deflecting_the_Storm]

in teaching the art of survival, yes some people have it while others dont. But its the whole fact of re programming their reflexes to be able to respond to threats and attacks. I have had students that just naturally pick up techniques and when fighting lose all of the training and go back to what they know best. But then I have seen students who have never gotten certain things down and are struggling through my class, knockout and injury quite quickly. As far as the politics in Buijinkan, I have no idea. I am a kenpo man myself!

 

[Flatlander]

I must credit most of you for your ability to carry on a discussion in the same room as someone who is certainly unbalanced. Gentlemen, pat yourselves on the back. Man oh man. Don't let him out of the Ninjustsu forum. He'll eat the children.

 

[r.severe]

Boy oh boy.. ok.. I’ll give it a shot…
“””If I am not mistaken, Hatsumi sensei has said that you will never understand the truth of martial arts if you stick to the idea of what is strong or weak, actually I think the truth to this is we are all weak and can be killed very easily(how many people have slipped and died while taking a shower one wonders)...to believe you are strong is a really dangerous mind set, what you seem to be saying is you can beat these guys in a fight, if it was a fair fight maybe(no offence to anyone here)...”””

Blind, you are correct. In my own research and development I do not ponder strong or weak. I just work on long term cause and effect. Maybe you are misreading something I wrote. And maybe it is because you do not know me then in that cause yes, you most likely misunderstand what I’m saying. This could be true because of the nature the written word can be intrepid over the web. For one I do not base my martial skills or living skills on power or strength. That would be fruitless and not good sight into the future. I give myself more credit than that.
With what you are saying from what Hatsumi sensei has stated before is true, very wise and a fact of laws of nature.

“””Mybe I should clarify a little, I am not trying to say you aren`t skillfull, it just sounds like you were talking the muscle there, and I did wander around a bit much, basically to call people weak is a matter of opinion(though some people may be more right than others), and you may be right, but really is it necessary? Maybe you are speaking about them as people, and not of their skill or power, but if thats the case then why write it in public?”””

Blind, is what necessary? I don’t believe I called anyone weak. If you are referring to Dale shihan and Donny sensei.. well ‘weak’ in terms of BS and their agenda.. yes. They twist and mislead without first hand knowledge of their subject in terms of personal hateful attacks. It’s weak because they do it over the web behind the protection of their doors…. That’s weak.

“”””Do you need to defend your ego that much?””””

Blind, I am defending the laws of nature. Ego and fear are part of those. I feel to many feel what is said by sheep is taken as truth because they have been to a foreign country or live in a foreign country or have some ranking that in reality doesn’t mean anything. Get my point? This is what I in fact defend.. the little guy who doesn’t know better.

“””A person who is confident usually doesn`t resort to that kind of thing, and you do seem very confident. Anyway I re read my last post and it sounds a little attacking which its not meant to, I just think comments like the last one are not needed. One other thing I was thinking, do you really think you give your students the ability to survive?”””

Blind, In regards to self-confidence… I have mine and they have theirs..this is a forum.. well blind, I just roll with them and give back what they give to me.. no disrespect to them.. they are just wandering around with their ego and fear that the bad Ralph is telling some truth and this blows their kingdom down… but they get what they give… I believe I’m fair.. and honest.. major point is I don’t know them and don’t say I know them or their teaching methods… or their lives.. in they post that they know mine.. they don’t.. I just see what they put on the table.. in writing.. and respond to that.. if they say stupid things then I respond to that.. not personal.. just that..
If you are a drug user.. smoker.. and talk trash about healthy living.. then you should be called for it.. if you talk about fight with little or no fighting experience then you should be called for it.. let’s get it out in the open.. get it? I have never had a student not survive that has trained with me within my knowledge… I do know I pass on information on living and surviving as well as other instructors who help here and I feel they do their best to help others… but in the end it is a personal responsibility of the person in question to be able to survive.

“””I get the impression you are quite a natural when it comes to the combat thing, but is that something that can be taught?”””

Blind, I’m not sure.. you’ll have to drop by and see for yourself if the human beings here can in fact defend themselves.. the only way to understand is to test and re-test your skills… reason comes from knowledge.. faith and belief comes from judgment…

“””I have wondered about this myself, some people who may not even have martial arts training, you can tell that at all costs its better to go around, others(and we have all met people like this) who may be very highly graded you stop and think, that guy has no idea(and its not just the Bujinkan-I am not debating rank) You know what I mean?”””

Blind, No I do not. Maybe because I do not see the question.

“””I just wonder what your take on this is, I agree that people can through training and hardship become skilled and very capable of looking after themselves, but I am talking about the kind of person who was born for it, and I guess that could be a topic in itself. I come from a reasonably sheltered upbringing living in the country, a fight there generally stops when a man goes down(though worse happens), however in the city where know one knows you the limits of decency get lifted, a guy goes down, you don`t know him, why stop kicking?? I am not that sort of person but they are out there, and in my training the first thing I got told was no martial art will help if your unconscious. I am just wondering how you feel that a person can through what I imagine is really quite safe training you can instill the presence of mind required to survive?? “”””

Blind, I use shock training for this. Mainly at the beginning of every class. It is natural to touch others.. but really not in our society.. we tend to keep away and avoid others.. this in turn causes misunderstandings.
So shock is the beginning stage. Getting use to being touched, grabbed, pinched, bitten, jabbed, etc.. many need shock training just to be looked at.. LOL.. people even die from being looked at.. macho BS..
You seem to be lucky living away from all the BS of the city… I too was raise in the country as a youth… I feel very lucky..

“””Again I will stress I am not commenting on you as a martial artist nor anyone else, I am not qualified, just wondering what you think. Also the questions while directed at Ralph can be commented on by anyone...”””

Blind, I don’t mine being questioned or having questions.. thanks.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

I must credit most of you for your ability to carry on a discussion in the same room as someone who is certainly unbalanced. Gentlemen, pat yourselves on the back.

I think it is important to always keep the attitude that you would show in court on the internet. You may be totally opposed toa person, but you never drop that ability to talk without threats, goading or challenging someone to a fight.

The last is important. If you are talking about whether someone is a member of the Bujinkan or not, not only does beating on each other not change the fact that the person may not be a member, but the guys I know who have great amounts of real verifiable experience with street violence treat the matter of fighting too seriously to use over petty disputes. Even when I disected Sojobow for all of his deception and posturing, I never even talked about doing physical violence to him.

So the fact that a member of this discussion has resorted to such tactics is fairly disturbing. Luckily, he seems to not be a Bujinkan member anymore and does not represent the orginization at all. The fact that he is allowed to do such on a board that prevents things I beleive are much tamer is puzzling.

 

[ronhughen]

Ahhhh . . . BIG sigh . . . .



This argument about Ralph shihan’s authenticity as a bujinkan instructor is very old. I’ve been training with Ralph shihan for more than 15 years now and I think this has been going on all that time. Ralph shihan during that time has been promoted several times by the Soke, so I am not sure how anyone can rightly question that he is a member of the bujinkan.



I also find it kind of funny how over time individuals make comments about Ralph shihan’s teachings yet apparently have no direct experience with them. I went to a seminar by Dale shihan a little over a year ago and found him teaching almost exactly what Ralph shihan teaches . . . I even thought Dale and Ralph shihans move almost identically (taking account for very different body types). The main difference I noticed is that Ralph shihan has a very “real” and . . . scary energy expressed in his demonstrations (one of the guys in our dojo commented that at time when he is uke its scary how real and believable the feeling of what Ralph shihan is delivering is . . . that’s why he’s my teacher, because I need to believe that the stuff can actually work, without an uke that appears to be cooperating). He’s big, he’s fast, he’s exactly precise and accurate with his movements and strikes. I’ve experienced all this first hand for many years. Those who are saying differently are not speaking from actual experienced based knowledge and really should not be saying those things. So, again, many criticisms about Ralph shihan must be based on nothing but imagination, certainly not direct experience. If the criticisms are not based or real facts, what are they based on? Personally, I feel that people object to Ralph shihan’s approach because he appears to “go beyond” what Hatsumi sensei is teaching (when in fact, I believe Ralph shihan is doing EXACTLY what Hatsumi sensei advocates . . . I hear hear Hatsumi sensei on his videos stressing that he is showing basic techniques and we must explore variations constantly).



Over the years I have encountered people that have actually attended a seminar or training sessions with Ralph shihan and have not only been impressed with him, but also with the quality of his students. (and, by the way, Ralph shihan gave a seminar here in Utah a year ago, and NONE of the local bujinkan “students” attended . . . which to me seemed odd . . . that they would pass on the opportunity to get some direct experience with someone they must have heard so much about). Yes, he has students that are some of the most skillful and talented martial artists I have ever seen. Eddie Moore, Shannon Seaback, Neil Stewart, Ben Adams. These guys are real fighters. If you’ve never visited the dojo nor attended a Ralph shihan seminar then you really can’t have an opinion about his teaching or his students’ competencies. Training in the Kamiyama dojo emphasizes a variety of realistic sparring activities, using various levels of appropriate protection to allow students to use realistic energies to apply what they practice in forms and exercises. We spar empty handed and with weapons.



Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and offer a little defense of Ralph shihan based on my actual experience with him, which I don’t believe many of those shooting off criticisms actually have. I know the Kamiyama dojo is always open and welcoming to any of you to visit and check it out. Please do so then tell us about your opinion based on your experience. Whether positive or negative, with actual experience your opinion will be credible.



(Note, Ralph shihan also video tapes many of his classes and might send you some samples of what goes on in classes if he was asked . . . then you might see . . . )

 

[r.severe]

Why thank you Ron sensei...
Even if I will not renew my shidoshikai membership this Dec... I will remain a senior ranked Bujinkan member under Hatsumi sensei ""but not"" a Bujinkan member per-say as in the BS games and rear kissing... for rank.. or being one of the mickey mouse gang...

I don't believe anyone can talk trash around what Ron sensei has stated.. more or less very simple.. even Jay can underdstand it..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

I will remain a senior ranked Bujinkan member under Hatsumi sensei ""but not"" a Bujinkan member per-say as in the BS games and rear kissing... for rank.. or being one of the mickey mouse gang...

I do not see how you can be one and not the other. You need to be a member of the shidoshikai and a Bujinkan dues paying member to teach using the Bujinkan name.

It is that simple.

 

[TimoS]

I do not see how you can be one and not the other. You need to be a member of the shidoshikai and a Bujinkan dues paying member to teach using the Bujinkan name.

Somehow, I had always thought that you would have to be part of the "parent organization" (in this case Bujinkan) to be able to advance and receive training. From what I've gathered from discussions between you and mr. Severe, this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it really more or less voluntary in Bujinkan to be a member ? As I don't practise Bujinkan, I'm only curious, although in my opinion being part of "parent organization" also shows that you respect your teacher (easy for me to say, our worldwide "organization" in Tauramuso ryu is nothing when compared in size to Bujinkan, so it is easier for teachers to enforce the rule that you have to be part of the tradition and it also means that there isn't so much politics involved)

 

[Don Roley]

Somehow, I had always thought that you would have to be part of the "parent organization" (in this case Bujinkan) to be able to advance and receive training. From what I've gathered from discussions between you and mr. Severe, this doesn't seem to be the case.

Indeed. I am confused by Ralph's contradictory statements.

As I have been told constantly, you need to be a member in good standing and a member of the shidoshikai to teach Bujinkan. (I have never had an interest in teaching and avoided being a member of the shidoshikai.) If you leave the orginization, you cease being able to use the Bujinkan name and have a Bujinkan dojo. Kind of like a Doctor that leaves the AMA I guess.

So you need to be a member of the shidoshikai, right? Well, where in the following is a mention of Ralph being a member of the shidoshikai?

I don't recall saying I didn't teach the 6 ryuha from the teachings of Hatsumi sensei.. did I ?
So how is it you feel I do not ?
I teach the tenchijin.. which I have from 1986... when I was given permission to teach the Bujinkan arts.
So.. funny you would say or imply that I in fact do not...
And if this is not what you said.. then what was it ?
If you have a simple example what you mean by... ""Just that it's not Bujinkan""....
Then explain how it is I do in fact teach the same ryuha and same tenchijin that Hatsumi sensei has in his Bujinkan but it is not Bujinkan ?
Just because I do not rank people in Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu doesn't mean I do not teach the arts of the Bujinkan unless you have some magic ball that can explain other-wise.. ????
I believe with all due respect you're a little lost.. or maybe just in a vortex...
In fact you can be a student of the Bujinkan Dojo, ranked in the Bujinkan Dojo and NOT be a member or a shidoshikai member... It has been this way from what I remember... oh 1986....
Once you are in fact ranked doesn't mean you are not that rank if you die, walk away from the circus, train in other arts.. or just don't care to be part of the vortex of BS...

The last part is kind of important. "In fact you can be a student of the Bujinkan Dojo, ranked in the Bujinkan Dojo and NOT be a member or a shidoshikai member... It has been this way from what I remember... oh 1986....
Once you are in fact ranked doesn't mean you are not that rank if you die, walk away from the circus, train in other arts.. or just don't care to be part of the vortex of BS... So it would seem that Ralph believes that once he achieves rank, he never has to do anything else like renew his membership and follow the rules about such things. Ralph seems to think that because he believes he knows what Hatsumi is doing, he can teach. The thing is, several other people like Brian McCarthy, Wayne L. Roy, Fumio Manaka, Robert Bussey, etc, have not been members for a long time and are not allowed to say they are Bujinkan instructors because they do not belong to the orginization.

As an aside, I have heard stories about how people have been given rank at a Tai Kai and the like, only to have problems later on when the paperwork was examined (if at all) once Hatsumi got back to Japan. I had a friend dodge rank for a long time because no one knew what rank he was and assumed he was higher than he actually was. A friend squealed and he got the rank. And Tai Kais were open to everyone the last time I attended one before moving to Japan (in 1991 I think.)

I'm only curious, although in my opinion being part of "parent organization" also shows that you respect your teacher

Yes, I think respecting your teacher is a big part of budo, and part of the concern many have with what Ralph does. I do not know of many who would approve of someone who will not talk face to face with the person they claim to be their teacher about the complaints they have with the way things are done but rather talk about it out of their sight in public. I have talked with my teacher about some aspects of his training and he listened. I have never talked about them with anyone else. That is respect in my book. Not threatening others or making fun of their names, etc, is also a sign of respect.

 

[Dale Seago]

. . .so I am not sure how anyone can rightly question that he is a member of the bujinkan.

It's pretty simple, as I explained earlier and as Don has reiterated above.

I also find it kind of funny how over time individuals make comments about Ralph shihan’s teachings yet apparently have no direct experience with them. I went to a seminar by Dale shihan a little over a year ago and found him teaching almost exactly what Ralph shihan teaches . . . I even thought Dale and Ralph shihans move almost identically (taking account for very different body types).

Nowhere in this thread have I said that Ralph is in any sense a poor martial artist. In fact, I said to him "I have not suggested and am not suggesting that you suck or what you do sucks."

It's interesting that you see me & Ralph as doing essentially the same things and moving essentially the same way. One of my judan-level students who has not relocated out of the area still trains with me every week when his law enforcement job permits. And pretty much every week, I'll at some point spot something which will cause me to make sure he actually feels what I'm doing. The result: "Oh, that's not what I thought was going on at all." If this still happens with a shihan who has trained with me for many years and still trains with me now, and who also trains in Japan, it's fascinating that you have such fine-tuned observation as to be able to tell that I & Ralph are doing the same thing. By the same token, it's interesting that Ralph can tell what Hatsumi sensei is doing just from years of watching videos.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that I fully understand everything Soke does myself. Far from it. But at least I make a point of regularly training with him and with some of the Japanese shihan who are closest to him.

The main difference I noticed is that Ralph shihan has a very “real” and . . . scary energy expressed in his demonstrations (one of the guys in our dojo commented that at time when he is uke its scary how real and believable the feeling of what Ralph shihan is delivering is . . . that’s why he’s my teacher, because I need to believe that the stuff can actually work, without an uke that appears to be cooperating).

That's a rather significant difference. For that particular seminar, I was mostly emphasizing -- and I kept saying it over and over -- NOT projecting any sort of "attacking intention" an opponent can read or that an outside observer would pick up by watching your movement. There should not be any appearance or feeling that a "fight" is going on. Part of the idea was to ensure the opponent is NOT scared, because if he is he may react unthinkingly in a way you did not anticipate and which might cause you some difficulty. He should think and feel that everything is going just fine until it's too late; and he should die not feeling he "lost" or was "beaten", but simply puzzled and confused.

. . .(and, by the way, Ralph shihan gave a seminar here in Utah a year ago, and NONE of the local bujinkan “students” attended . . . which to me seemed odd . . . that they would pass on the opportunity to get some direct experience with someone they must have heard so much about).

It's what they call free market forces at work. It's likely that some people just don't feel that someone who goes to such lengths to present himself as a "fighter", who has spent a long time "beating the crap out of people", etc., is the sort of role model they want to learn from, no matter how skilled he may be.

In closing, just a minor technical point: Your references to "Ralph shihan". In the Bujinkan today the term "shihan" is used to refer to people holding the rank of judan and above. Ralph does not hold that rank and, for reasons I and Ralph have both presented earlier in the thread, is not likely to at any time in the immediately foreseeable future. However, since it appears that he and you aren't in the Bujinkan, I guess you're free to do whatever you like in that regard.

 

[Dale Seago]

It's probably obvious that Ralph Severe and I are approaching things from very different philosophical perspectives: Ralph sees himself as a fighter, while Hatsumi sensei is trying, through the Bujinkan, to produce warriors. You can get a better sense of the latter by reading my first post, titled "Warrior Creed and Robert Humphrey" -- the one with the photo of Jack Hoban -- on this page:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35147&perpage=25&pagenumber=8

(Jack, by the way, is now 15th dan in the Bujinkan. He was my first teacher and is still a friend and mentor.)

Prof. Humphrey's values training has been "blessed" as fitting for the Bujinkan via Hatsumi sensei's award of a posthumous honorary 10th dan rank to him on his passing.

 

[Blind]

To Ralph, fair enough in regard to your reply to my meandering post, the bit you didn`t understand was not well worded I guess, I was just looking for a comment on what you think about the fact that some people are quite naturally very dangerous while others are not(which was answered anyway)...I think everyone has the potential to be, so I won`t bother coming to your dojo to see if your students can defend themselves, I am sure they can(I am a long way from the states too)....anyone can with or without martial training...just some better than others. I try not to think bad of anything anyone does because at the end of the day, everyone is alone with themselves and in their knowledge of god and everything else, but I still beleive if you are saying(and maybe you aren`t) that you teach real combat and survival, that`s a big claim, to make an analogy, I could listen to Mozart my entire life, eventually I might become good at mimicking his work, but that wouldn`t make me Mozart and I wouldn`t be able to create works like he did. In that respect I can see what you say about some people who might think they are true students of budo when all they do is go to a class and "copy" a master with little understanding of the larger picture. That said I think without someone to point the way or not being someone with the ability to see someone is pointing the way it would be pretty easy to get lost. You seem to have decided you can stand on your own two feet and go your own way which is a hard thing to do, the fact you feel you no longer need Hatsumi Sensei to hold your hand says to me you are a brave person indeed. I am not a personal student of his but I feel that had I the opportunity I would be very slow to walk away from him, very slow, in fact I think to go the budo path without a wall like him to bounce of is to walk a really fine line. You are older than myself and all I can say is good luck, personally I would go more the way Dale is, you have the rest of your life to not have a guy like Hatsumi sensei around, but while he is here(this world) to go out on your own to me is a very bold move (like I said, good luck). Hatsumi sensei at this point is really so far along the line I doubt anyone except some of the people who have trained a really long time can see what he is doing, anyway I had made my point and you answered, I just saw the "you are so weak line" and felt it wasn`t called for.I will shut up now and return to my own little world. Thanks for your reply. One thing I am interested in though, what is shock training?(I could guess but please give me some examples of how you do it).
One final point, the teachers I really respect don`t even talk about how effective they are, I respect a teacher a lot more for who he teaches and how he teaches than what he claims to teach, just because a person is good does not make him worthy to be a teacher.IMO.

 

[ronhughen]

Dale Shihan,



I tried to be careful not to personally attack or accuse anybody directly in my post . . . so with that said let me say I really enjoyed your seminar and learned a lot from it. I understood the message you were teaching with projecting “non intent” at the time. I have also experienced Ralph shihan demonstrating some of the kind of subtitles you spoke of. I just wanted to point out that Ralph shihan expresses an energy I have never seen in anybody else. (I don’t feel its appropriate to address what you were saying about my perceptions compared to your judan student, since you don’t really know anything about the nature of my perceptions, and I don’t know anything about the judan you refer to . . .).



You said that you and Ralph shihan “are approaching things from very different philosophical perspectives”, but I respectfully disagree, and say instead, you may be more alike than either of you recognize. . . I see the difference being like the difference between the Beatles’ “Come together” and Aerosmith’s “Come together” . . . same words . . . same tune, different style. I can’t say which I like better, but there’s something to be learned from both . . . I did not find much in your seminar that was essentially different from what I have learned from Ralph shihan, just different from a style perspective . . . but, I only had contact with you for about 12 hours, so perhaps I have not experienced enough of you to appreciate bigger difference you imply.



One question . . . are you saying that being a “fighter” is not part of being a warrior? Sun Tzu said “those are victorious that know when to fight and when not to fight”, which to me means that to make that decision one MUST be able to fight, one MUST be capable of fighting to have the choice of fighting or not. Ralph shihan actually has two separate programs or systems . . . “Art of Combat” is fighting training . . . Ninjutsu is self perfection/life skills training . . . with a little less emphasis on fighting attitude. Through training in both we students pursue living like warriors (and I believe being a warrior is about how one lives . . . which includes not only physical training, but also the study of almost everything around us and perfecting ways we conduct ourselves in our lives . . . ie; how we treat others, how we take care of ourselves . . . our health . . .). Sir, don’t you agree that warrior-ship encompasses all this?



I would enjoy attending your seminars again when you are back in my area, however I have received enough negative emails from those locally and in neighboring states that I don’t think I would feel comfortable attending such events. Getting back to your warrior comments, one of these emails was from a student (I’m not sure if he is yours or Bill sensei’s student) who sent me a very long, very angry email expressing how upset he is that Ralph shihan gives his student’s warrior names, and that we are not warriors, and that Ralph shihan is not a warrior and he (the student emailing me) only considers those that have been “under fire” to be true warriors . . . (he also made a lot of other comments about me personally, some quite insulting, surprising me seeing that he does not actually even know me . . . in fact I initiated the email as a friendly way to try to get to know him, to honestly try to get involved with these groups in my area, but I have been very turned off by such negative attitudes and expressions and behaviors) . . . this seems to go against the “philosophy” you spoke of in your post. Other students of local groups here have also expressed very negative feelings towards me in emails and at seminars, apparently simply because I am a student of Ralph shihan (people that have essentially NO direct experience knowing me as a person). To me this is not the kind of spirit I seek to be around or part of (its not like the warrior spirit taught in the kamiyama dojo), so I pursue learning experiences elsewhere (and honestly, there are SOOOOOOO many sources from where one can learn). It would surprise me to hear you say this is the kind of attitude that Hatsumi sensei promotes or condones. The situation is a shame, because I personally thought you were very interesting and someone I could have enjoyed learning from.

 

[Dale Seago]

One question . . . are you saying that being a “fighter” is not part of being a warrior? Sun Tzu said “those are victorious that know when to fight and when not to fight”, which to me means that to make that decision one MUST be able to fight, one MUST be capable of fighting to have the choice of fighting or not.

Certainly we agree on this much at least. In the Sword Forum thread I linked above, go back one page and see my post titled "'Physical-Moral' Courage" and the extracts I quoted from Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon's essay "No Peaceful Warriors": http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35147&perpage=25&pagenumber=7

Redmoon is sadly gone from us, but I enjoyed some correspondence with him after the essay was published.

 

[Don Roley]

That's a rather significant difference. For that particular seminar, I was mostly emphasizing -- and I kept saying it over and over -- NOT projecting any sort of "attacking intention" an opponent can read or that an outside observer would pick up by watching your movement. There should not be any appearance or feeling that a "fight" is going on. Part of the idea was to ensure the opponent is NOT scared, because if he is he may react unthinkingly in a way you did not anticipate and which might cause you some difficulty. He should think and feel that everything is going just fine until it's too late; and he should die not feeling he "lost" or was "beaten", but simply puzzled and confused.

Just to send this thread spinnining off on another tangent......

How many people have seen the movies "Yojimbo" and "Sanjuro" with Toshiro Mifune? Eveidently they were very close to the classical samurai. Much more so that the crud that comes out today.

Ever watch just how cool and non- threatening Mifune's charecter is? He slices through villians and his dinner with the same type of attitude. In at least one point he is walking down the street in the middle of a battle and he is attacked. He draws his sword and slices with one motion and resheathes it while continuing to walk.

Now that is one cold mutha.....

And that it pretty close to what the classical warrior (as compared with fighter) of Japan was.

It is an interesting hobby to study the aspects of human conflict. Not just artificial sports like what goes on in the ring, but the various enrgies and such that surround a real life or death encounter. Stone cold killers are rare. The vast majority of people have to warm themselves up. Peytonn Quinn (RMCTA.com) came up with the term "woof" for the snarling and such that goes on before a real fight. Part of it is testing someone to see if they flinch or act like prey, but a lot of it is to hype oneself up before throwing a blow. He takes the name from what goes on between dogs before they start to fight. In some cases, there does not even have to be violence as one achieves dominence over the other. But the attacks by dogs without the "woof" is pretty much confined to those with special training. The same goes for humans.

Quinn relaized that a lot of what goes on in a real fight is not covered by the majority of martial arts training in America. Since the typical person has to build themselves up for a fight, the first guy to start screaming and pressing the verbal attack before launching a sucker punch has the advantage since the other guy is still trying to first deal with the idea of building up to a combat mindset. By the time he has, it is too late. The typical person can not fight cold and without the screaming that goes on before a fight and so they end up at a disadvantage to those that take the initiative. Stone cold killer types are able to deal with it without showing any hostile intent beforehand.

The guy that needs to scream, yell and act arrogently macho is a fighter. The guy who can go from zero to sixty in a split second is a warrior. Both deal with violence, but the latter is so much more effective than the former. I know a few stone cold killers. Give me a screaming maniac anyday! These guys don't get flustered, don't get cowed and you never know what they are going to do or when.

So, I try not to show intent, or be swayed by emotion. I am not longer impressed by those that show a lot of macho attitude. And after reading this web site maybe others will cease to be awed by those that have to use a lot of swaggering in their life to get by. But if a modern day Toshiro Mifune walks down the street towards me, I am running like the hounds of hell are on my tail.

 

[r.severe]

“””Thanks for your reply. One thing I am interested in though, what is shock training?(I could guess but please give me some examples of how you do it).”””

Blind,
First off you need to understand there is a difference between bujutsu, budo, ninjutsu and ninpo. They are not the same as training methodology goes. And with that they are very different as far as physiology, reasons for training, spiritual, etc.. goes.. very different.
When one says budo it is different than ninpo or bugei or kobujutsu or kobudo…not the same…
Okay?
The body, mind and heart gets hit… and then naturally the body, mind and heart goes into shock.
Shock is the state of feeling not fighters naturally go into if they are not trained correctly for combative encounters. Much like one of the lower mega-dans or higher mega-dans would if they got hit and were not trained or training for fighting.
Why does this happen to such renowned martial artist and such highly ranked martial artist.. good question..
Because they do not train warriorship correctly.. they train for art and demos of that art. You know the slow, stop and go, no energy, no power, elitist type budo safe training methodology.
Shock comes in many ways.. snappy, deep impact, crushing, pooping, etc… each have to be explored and researched then trained to understand it and how to create it during training. (importantly, unarmed and weaponry both have shock)…..
I was introduced to shock training in kickboxing in the late 70’s. we mainly used focus mitts to hit the body all over till it was conditioned to receive this treatment during fighting..
Over the years I researched many different types of shock training from many different martial systems. They all have something to offer. Savate, systema, panatukan, pencak silat, etc.. all have it…
My Dojo kihon waza has a great deal of shock training in it… to help with being able to have a immovable heart.. or to hide the heart during hardships… I hope you understand this… meaning.

“””One final point, the teachers I really respect don`t even talk about how effective they are, I respect a teacher a lot more for who he teaches and how he teaches than what he claims to teach, just because a person is good does not make him worthy to be a teacher.IMO.”””

Blind, That is really wonderful of them…
It is mainly said.. a few points…
Those who are fighters laugh at those who teach fighting without fighting experience.
Those who cannot fight, teach.
Those not willing to fight sit by and watch those you can from the sideline.
Those who draw a sword for the sake of art never feel the need to draw it for self-preservation.
Those who never go to the post talk about how deadly they are and how they would hurt someone if they do.
Those who sit in a office with no warrior experience and send young men to die in their name are politicians.
Do you get my point?
A teacher is a human being or an animal who researches the very nature of the laws of nature to pass them on to his family or fiends.. and at times students…
My question to you Blind is.. how do these human being or animals teach if they do not have experience in what they confess they teach as the truth?
They are mainly BSers… looking for a handout… rank, cash, fame, etc…
Teachers first learn, research, train, experiment the skills they learned, researched and trained… to KNOW if in fact what they are doing is useful, has a reason, and can work for others like themselves…
If a teacher is not willing to or will not tell you of his/her experiences and why they can teach what they can.. then most likely they are full of it…
If they are fit and young enough, but will not get out on the mat weekly with their students and fight.. then what is it that they are hiding or running from?
Most likely Blind they are afraid they will be embarrassed or get their butt kicked and lose their cash flow or ranking.. fame.. etc…
I believe you should enjoy your training.. which ever you choose..
If it is with a BSer.. then ok.. if you like it and feel it is safe for you.. then go for it..
I wouldn't know how to explain to say.. Ron sensei that I wouldn't spar with him because I'm to high ranked.. or some other excuse...
What kind of BS would he say back to me..?
He is a very educated adult... with many years of experience in karate and other martial arts... and I don't feel my BS would go over with him to well...
I believe you understand what I'm saying...

Thanks...

By the way.. you do not have to be a member of the Bujinkan Dojo to be ranked by Hatsumi sensei.. or teach others your skills you have learned from Hatsumi sensei...
And by the way... I do not pay $$$ for being a martial artist.. I am what I am.. you don't have to pay $$$ to be who you are..
And by the way.. why not answer the question put to you Dale shihan.. why avoid them..? Something to hide?
OOOOPPPPSSS. ONE MORE THING.. rank doesn't make you a 'master'... skill does... and that title comes from your friends and family who respect you for how they view you as a human being... how you treat others.. and your ability to do what you say you will do.. honor, respect...loyality..

ralph severe

 

[Dale Seago]

By the way.. you do not have to be a member of the Bujinkan Dojo to be ranked by Hatsumi sensei.. or teach others your skills you have learned from Hatsumi sensei...

It's true that Soke has given honorary ranks for various reasons to non-members of the Bujinkan who have never even trained in it. Rank alone, however, whether honorary or otherwise, doesn't give someone any teaching authority.

From the hard-copy Rules of the Bujinkan Dojo given to Shidoshi:

2. All members must have a membership card for the year, issued by the Hombu. There are two types of membership card: General Membership Card, and Shidoshi-Kai Membership Card.

(i) The General Membership Card applies to members of the Bujinkan Dojo, whether ungraded, kyu-grade, or dan-grade.

(ii) The Shidoshi-Kai Membership Card applies to those of Fifth Dan and above (called Shidoshi) and those from First to Fourth Dan (called Shidoshi-ho). Members who are teaching should possess one of these cards. Non Shidoshi-kai members are not recognized as teachers and can not grade students.

. . .4. The yearly membership fee of the Shidoshi-kai is. . .to be paid by the end of January each year.

5. All memberships must be renewed every year.

6. Shidoshi-kai members must supply an up to date passport type photograph together with their yearly membership fee, for use in a projected Shidoshi-kai directory.

 

[Dale Seago]

I think it is important to always keep the attitude that you would show in court on the internet. You may be totally opposed toa person, but you never drop that ability to talk without threats, goading or challenging someone to a fight.

The last is important. If you are talking about whether someone is a member of the Bujinkan or not, not only does beating on each other not change the fact that the person may not be a member, but the guys I know who have great amounts of real verifiable experience with street violence treat the matter of fighting too seriously to use over petty disputes. Even when I disected Sojobow for all of his deception and posturing, I never even talked about doing physical violence to him.

So the fact that a member of this discussion has resorted to such tactics is fairly disturbing. Luckily, he seems to not be a Bujinkan member anymore and does not represent the orginization at all. The fact that he is allowed to do such on a board that prevents things I beleive are much tamer is puzzling.

I agree regarding "manner of presentation". Once you put something out there on the 'net you can't take it back, and you have no control over how it may be used. Were Ralph to someday seriously injure or kill someone, for instance -- even by sheer accident -- his commentaries in threads such as this would be useful to a prosecutor.

You never know who will end up seeing what you write. For example: Hatsumi sensei's Hombu Administrator in Japan, whose English is excellent, has been aware of this thread since June 17.

 

[r.severe]

Putting aside all the sheepeople BS that is written in the name of ego and fear by want-to-be warriors.... masters megadan who should have the title becuase of the poor living skills and inadequate abilities to truthfully say they have no combative-fighting experience.....

I feel honesty is the most important...

If you cannot be honest.. then what's the use?
Why not answer the questions...
Why not address the statements put here about your lies and misleading statements about me.. Dale shihan..?

I'm sure the mental police in Japan (around the world) reads those too..

Do you have someting to hide?

Honesty...

Look at Donny sensei post.. he has no experience other than what is told to him, he reads or watches in a seminar... when it comes to combative -fighting experience..
He has posted the same BS for years... talking about conflict experience is a 'void' with him.. which is most likely in his good nature to stay away from it.. good for him.

*****The point of this thread is.. no matter whos butt you are kissing it is still kissing butt... and that's the good old boys club where you get your ranking... because with all truth.. that is what you are saying.. in your post..
I DO NOT WISH TO KISS BUTT OR BE PART OF YOUR CLUB...*****

ralph severe, kamiyama