Tenjindo

[Dale Seago]

What "rank" do you have to be to teach Bujinkan arts? I keep hearing Godan (5th degree) but all the instructors in my state are shodan, nidan, or sandan.....what gives?

There are two instructor categories, Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho. A Shidoshi is someone at 5th dan or above, and these folks are authorized to have their own dojo.

A Shidoshi-ho or "junior-grade" instructor is someone at 1st through 4th dan who is teaching with the permission, and under the guidance, of a shidoshi. Once you reach 5th dan you ain't gotta be nobody's -ho, no mo'.

According to the paperwork I have from the Hombu, both Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho are required to be members of the Bujinkan Shidoshikai and to renew their Shidoshikai membership cards each year. If they don't do that, they're teaching without authorization.

You can see pictures of the pertinent documents on the FAQ page at Luke Molitor's site, http://www.jigokudojo.com/

 

[Jay Bell]

As a fully licensed instructor, Godan. Typically the lower grades are representative of a shidoshi when they teach.

 

[Shogun]

Thanks. that would explain all the talk of "6th dan Shidoshi". It seems like Ninjutsu has similar rank properties as BJJ. Now dont jump the gun because I said that, anyone. I know what I said. I am saying it because at blue belt (2-3 years) in BJJ, you can coach. at purple (4-5 years) you can instruct and issue rank. at brown(6-9 years) you are a full teacher. at black(8-10 years) you are a proffessor, or master instructor.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen this thread is drifting further and further from the original post please retun to the topic.
If you wish to start another thread on your credentials and ways of teaching please do so.

 

[r.severe]

Why thank you Jay, I aim to please even the smaller minded guys..

Why Dale shihan.. what happened?
Are you avoiding the questions?
Should I stop and just say it...
You are not telling the truth on most of what you said?
What a shihan liar.. no way... this would be against the rules of the Bujinkan.. wouldn't it?

If you do not answer them.. then I understand...

Same old BS...
Bujinkan shihan...? Talk talk talk.. over the web.. but no back bone.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Jay Bell]

Ironic. You've strayed long from the Bujinkan path...so much you can't even recognize it...with a "my way is the only way"...and you point fingers about being small minded.

Kudos, champ...keep it up.

 

[Dale Seago]

At the risk of repeating myself:

. . .you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).

Ralph, your entire written "body of work" on the 'net makes my points for me far better than I can do myself.

 

[Bujingodai]

My this has turned into a rather nasty yet interesting conversation.

I'm no one personally.

I have seen both Seago Shihan and Ralph move in person at a Tai Kai. Seago Shihan was one of the handful on stage that was not painful to watch at times.
When I first saw Ralph I figured he was just a big guy, however was very impressed to see how fast he could move and very intimidating to say the least, IMO the most real combat I saw in the ballroom completely. That again is just my opinion.
However all the desencion (sp) I am seeing in the Bujinkan, from many many people of all Yudansha ranks begs me to think about why they got to that rank and what pulled them away. Many seem to have the same thoughts so it would seem.
Quality assurance maybe is an issue, ranks handed out too quickly. I can't speak too much of that I am only a Shodan in the Kan, it took me 7 years.
I see some of Ralphs points, though I think they are a bit much on the animated side.
Odd to see Seago Shihan so fired up. But it's a good discussion.
The major issue I didn't like in the Bujinkan was never being allowed to discuss anything touchy. Such as when Soke dies..........big shhhh. Frig be realistic. What do you think will happen to the Kan after that, isn't that worth discussing.
Another is I have rarely seen a group where almost no (in my experience) dojo moves similarly or the dojo heads speak highly of each other. Wierd.

Sorry I strayed even further but we are on the bitching subject a little.

 

[Don Roley]

So, while it's crucial to train with Soke, it is equally critical to train with the shihan so that you can keep growing and not wander off the path. I've lost count of the times that Soke has pointed to the shihan and said people should train with them. I do it every chance I get; so do my students, and so do all the instructors around my neck of the woods that I know personally.

Just to continue in a subject related to this thread. I think it is important not only for the reason above, or the ones I have given, but also because it is some sort of proof that you are actually interested in learning rather than punching your ticket and puffing up your resume.

After 4th dan, the only person that can give you rank is Hatsumi. Some people at that point seem to only pay lip service to training with anyone other than Hatsumi. Coincidence? I think not.

When you show up to train with someone who can not give you rank, but can only show you new stuff and help you get better, what does that say about your priorities? I would say it shows that you care more about getting better than in people thinking that you are some sort of master.

The latter case is pretty common in the martial arts. People put in the minimum time to get some sort of recognition and then drop off the radar. This guy who started Tenjindo seems to be a classic case. Nobody seems to have heard of him, even though he claims to have a shodan rank. I believe still that he was a black belt video course student. RVD sells those things with the excuse that there is no other teacher in your area. But that is not the case in Dallas with Luke there. So this guy gets the minimum time in he can, puts it on his resume and starts his onw style. Why am I not impressed?

Some people do this through a variety of means. Tenjindo guy lists a few arts that he has studied. Most arts I know that are worth a damn deserve a lifetime of study before you suck all the marrow out of them. Bujinkan, Silat, Chinese internal arts, all of these could be studied for longer than Tenjindo guy has been alive and not see all there is to see. No matter how much he has seen, there would always be something new, some new aspect he hadn't seen, some instructor that could help him reach new understanding if he were truely interested in getting better rather than impressing others with his extensive martial arts background.

The sad thing is, I have seen numerous examples of guys who start their own arts with even more arts on their resume. I am talking about 10 or more and an average time of study of 6 months or less for each art.

If you claim to teach or study Bujinkan, then it just seems to me as obvious that you would seek out the best instruction possible in the subject that you can. There would never be some place you could stop and rest on your laurals. No matter how good you are, there would always be room for improvement. This guy would be showing up to train with a skilled practicioner like Luke not because it would look good on his resume, but because in an art that he felt proud enough to list on his web site he would always be looking for new insights.

The fact that he has stayed in Dallas and started his own art before he hit 50 and seeks out no further instruction that would threaten his ego is all I need to see and say that this guy should be given a wide berth by serious students.

 

[Dale Seago]

The major issue I didn't like in the Bujinkan was never being allowed to discuss anything touchy. Such as when Soke dies..........big shhhh. Frig be realistic. What do you think will happen to the Kan after that, isn't that worth discussing.

Such things do get discussed, just -- as a matter of respect for Soke and for the Bujinkan itself -- not publicly. In the same way, you wouldn't find me publicly speaking ill of another Bujinkan instructor, even if I disliked him or her.

Another is I have rarely seen a group where almost no (in my experience) dojo moves similarly or the dojo heads speak highly of each other. Wierd.

You should visit out here some time then. The San Francisco Bay Area is comparatively "fat" with good instructors who train regularly in Japan with Hatsumi sensei and various shihan, as do many of the students. Everyone moves differently, and the instructors are all friends. Additionally, quite a few people train often with more than one dojo.

When you show up to train with someone who can not give you rank, but can only show you new stuff and help you get better, what does that say about your priorities? I would say it shows that you care more about getting better than in people thinking that you are some sort of master.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's an excellent point. With regard to this Tenjindo guy, as you indicated he doesn't seem to have spent all that much time or reached a very high level in anything. . .and then he apparently decides none of those arts are adequate by themselves and he needs to take "the best" from all of them and create his own style. . .as you pointed out, a fairly young age. Sounds to me like it's just a rationalization to make some money.

 

[Bujingodai]

You make good points Dale, thanks. Yes it has only been in my experience. I have been to about say 10 odd dojo, all very different in what they do and what they think is important.
Frank Hill, Mike Pimblett and Pierre Benoit definatly rank among the top of that list, though all very very different.
It is too bad about the bad mouthing.
As for Soke, yes I get that...and I at least do appreciate that it is discussed as for such a large organization to go down in flames due to not wishing to face tough questions would be a shame.
I have heard from some Shidoshi many different scenario, thus why I asked. t seemed like it wasn't too cemented.
Like I said I am a nobody in the Kan, I am for the most part these days training under an Indie. Politics were just too much, but thats my reason.
I haven't really scoped the site, but has the Tenjindo guy stated he would grade people in BBT? Is he claiming a big lineage?

anyway thanks Seago Shihan.

 

[Dale Seago]

I haven't really scoped the site, but has the Tenjindo guy stated he would grade people in BBT? Is he claiming a big lineage?

No, neither. His organization is the "Ten Jin Do Marital Arts Association" -- yes, marital, not martial. :boing2: Website is http://www.tenjindo.com/

I have been to about say 10 odd dojo, all very different in what they do and what they think is important.

Well, we have some odd ones here too, my own among them. . . :wink2:

anyway thanks Seago Shihan.

You're welcome -- but for future reference, I'm more accustomed to just being addressed as "Dale" -- It's what everyone in my dojo calls me.

 

[Don Roley]

I hadn't thought about that, but it's an excellent point. With regard to this Tenjindo guy, as you indicated he doesn't seem to have spent all that much time or reached a very high level in anything. . .and then he apparently decides none of those arts are adequate by themselves and he needs to take "the best" from all of them and create his own style. . .as you pointed out, a fairly young age. Sounds to me like it's just a rationalization to make some money.

Here are his credentials.

Founder/4th degree black belt: Ten Jin Do

1st degree black belt level: Ninpo Taijutsu

2nd degree black belt level: WTF Tae kwon do

2nd degree brown belt level: Kudokan Judo

Experence in Aikijujutsu

Experence in Brazilian jujutsu

Experence in Muay thai

Aside from the art he started, he does not have more than a second dan in anything. And he only lists "experence" (sic) in three arts.

If I were to list all the arts I had experience in, it would be half a page. I have trained with guys like Bob Orlando, Peytonn Quinn, Steve Plinkt and Marc "Animal" MacYoung- all for an hour each. See how easy it is to build up a resume? So I kind of look at a large list of arts with a bit of suspicion.

And what is Kudokan Judo? This guy is not a great speller (I am not going to throw any stones) but I would think that a mistake like that would leap off the page at him if he was truely experienced with the art.

 

[Don Roley]

Like all the Japanese teachers and most American instructors, I have a "real-world day job", and my training and teaching has to come after that.

Why Dale, are you taking another shot at Ralph, or was this just a coincidence? I was just looking over this web page and thinking about how close it was to what I hear the Japanese say about the evils of teaching budo for a living. There is even an old poem by Momochi Sandayu that if you use ninpo for personal gain, you will never understand the true nature of it. (Or something to that effect.) Of course, I realized that you and Luke do not teach martial arts full time, but Ralph does. He is the one that all the warnings I have been hearing about how when you teach for a living, you become a budo businessman and not a person who can afford to keep high standards in the face of what the public wants applies to.

Did you mean to take this shot, or was it just a fluke?

 

[Dale Seago]

Why Dale, are you taking another shot at Ralph, or was this just a coincidence? I was just looking over this web page and thinking about how close it was to what I hear the Japanese say about the evils of teaching budo for a living. There is even an old poem by Momochi Sandayu that if you use ninpo for personal gain, you will never understand the true nature of it. (Or something to that effect.) Of course, I realized that you and Luke do not teach martial arts full time, but Ralph does. He is the one that all the warnings I have been hearing about how when you teach for a living, you become a budo businessman and not a person who can afford to keep high standards in the face of what the public wants applies to.

Did you mean to take this shot, or was it just a fluke?

That's a superb page, well worth bookmarking. A lot there would apply equally to this guy teaching Tenjindo Marital Arts.

No, I wasn't specifically digging at Ralph, just pointing out that since I don't teach for a living and have other commitments, I have to put a lot of thought into what is most important in my teaching, what's most effective and efficient in getting the result I want. (The result I want is good budoka who won't feel "lost" when they go and train in Japan.) It seems to work, as I have students who are now shihan themselves.

"Combative fitness", therefore, is not part of the dojo training itself. As an instructor it's not my responsibility to make others fit: It's to enable them to protect themselves and others. Fitness is not especially important in the execution of most techniques -- though it certainly does help in surviving an extended class session or a seminar. But general fitness is something students need to take care of on their own time.

Digressing to a somewhat related point, in the Bujinkan approach something that "looks combative" isn't necessarily better -- often it's quite the opposite. You need to be able to turn that sort of feeling either on or off, using it selectively, and for the past several years Soke seems to have been emphasizing the ability to do things with no obvious power and projecting no "intention" an opponent can read, not looking like you're "fighting" at all.

Now back to teaching for a living. . .I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that as a thing in itself, depending on "where you are in your life" when you do it. I think if you're a mature individual who has already "made a life for yourself" in some other way it can be great, because your life experiences become a part of your approach to teaching and can make it richer and deeper.

Someone like our Tenjindo marital expert who's young, has a shodan in one thing, a nidan in something else, a brown belt in something further, not only has no martial depth but no depth to his experience of life. This is especially dangerous, both for you and your students, if all you've ever really done is train in and teach martial arts: It leads to a very narrow, shallow perspective. Such a person is likely to be unable to see, for instance, that a ryu is not merely a body of knowledge but a living community.

I have no intention of teaching for a living myself, but I'd consider myself as someone who could do that without creating problems: I'm broadly educated (Master's degree in political science -- undergrad major was originally cultural anthropology); have had a 20-year military career (Marine NCO and commissioned Army officer); have a broad base over many years of civilian experience in security management and consulting; have considerable international experience and exposure to various cultures via both military and civilian travel; and have been training in the Bujinkan for twenty years. All of these things influence the way I teach. Quoting MacYoung on the breadth of stuff that's really necessary to enable people to defend themselves effectively (from the page you linked), "That is why my best advice to you about learning self-defense is to go study, different martial arts, legal issues, psychology, interpersonal skills, cultural anthropology, communication/negotiation etc., etc., because these issues have just as much to do with self-defense as any martial art."

The drawback with the idea is that I probably couldn't actually make a living at it, because real budo doesn't have mass appeal. So I'd have to jazz up the training with a lot of fitness conditioning so I could parcel out knowledge more gradually and slowly; start having "contests" such as sparring, and making things look really "combative", to keep students motivated and able to have an immediate sense that they're really "doing something". . .because otherwise they might take their money, which I've grown accustomed to considering my money, to a competitor.

Fortunately, for me it's never been about money, which makes it laughable that earlier Ralph said, "How do you help others in the community other than helping yourself to money at seminars?". That's pretty ironic, as I spend far more time going to other people's seminars than giving my own. Locally, I give a low-cost "back from Japan training" seminar a couple of times a year, generally for about 50 bucks a head, and that's it.

Outside the Bay Area I don't do much, for the simple reason that I've never been an especially high-profile guy so I don't get asked very often. The ones I do elsewhere are generally for people who used to train with me who have moved out of the area and relocated elsewhere, so there's already a relationship of trust and mutual regard. I don't set specific fees that hosts are required to meet: My usual arrangement is airfare, space on floor/couch/whatever to roll up in my plaidie, and a bottle of decent Scotch single-malt whisky; if there's some pocket money to bring home it's a nice treat, that's all. The last seminar I did was at the end of February for the Bujinkan campus organization at the University of Southern California, which is headed by a nidan from my dojo who's now down there going to school. For people coming in from off-campus, the cost was $50 for the weekend, two days of training; for the university students themselves there was no charge.

 

[r.severe]

Dale shihan…
How wonderful you are today....
What a joyful post about you Dale shihan....
It all about you Dale shihan... well here we are again… and you can take this how every you wish to twist it and repeat it… making it sound this or that way..
*First you mislead your words a great deal in your post.. almost close to being a liar at times… and more or less twist things to get around to your own selfish ego.
*Second when you are confronted you avoid at all cost when asked to back-up your statements regarding your personal and rude and at times hateful comments. In my opinion from the Bujinkan Dojo guidelines you should resign because of your ill metal statements.
*Third… In my opinion fitness is indeed a major part of ninpo.. as well deeply imbedded in the very nature of the ninjutsu kata and waza. It’s foolish to say other wise. What kind of guide are you? What kind of self-perfection or self-preservation are you doing as well as teaching… the very word ‘nin’ means to outlast… hello…
*Fourth the Japanese should consider coming to America to get beat up on some.. where violence is real and in your face and not a anti part of the Japanese culture. I feel many thing would be ‘ironed’ out if they would get out more.. see what’s real outside their small bubble… Japanese Bujinkan Aikido in general do look combative to the beginner and non-combative student.. one who is looking for fun and games… you know…’movie stuff’….
Look at Muramatsu sensei has proven himself combative and very skillful.. what’s the deal with the other Japanese students…? My question is why follow someone who in FACT HAS NO FIGHTING EXPERIENCE… in any system of self-preservation?
When I gave a seminar in Houston two years ago.. 85% of the black belts in the Bujinkan couldn’t even do push-ups..LOL.. what a joke..
I believe you take fitness personally.. because you smoke… and that’s gross in my opinion.. and not very healthy… as well as a poor example.
I believe with all due respect that your way off.. wrong on most of your views with any combative knowledge in your post…. Making it look like you have no experience with even sparring..
The reason is if you look combative and have fitness.. meaning mentally, physically and spiritually.. then ‘looking like you don’t’ is very simple.. totally backwards from what you are trying to sell here as ‘truth’.. and my friend it’s not.. you’re mainly full of BS… with combative knowledge… from what you posted.
The simple point is this my friend.. you cannot have something taken away if you don’t have it in the first place… and this is totally contrary to what you are stating.. in regards to combative motion, knowledge and over all fitness….. !!!!
Can you say mickey mouse ninja BS… ?
Do you in fact have any idea what you are saying in regards to fighting?
I would love taking this to a face to face example and see what it is in fact you are confessing to be able to do… with what it is you are claiming to be able to do…. This would stop that BS..
*Fifth you are right.. budo is not about fighting or training to fight… is art for arts sake.. the first thing in your last post that has legit meaning.. and not BS… this is why.. in fact I do not do budo.. I train bujutsu and apply it weekly.. in my life, business, and fighting skills as a trainers and guide..
And before you come back and stick your foot far up your rear.. beware that this does not mean competition training… or sport as you would like for it to mean. It’s smacking, popping, falling, hitting, pinching, biting, throwing, sweeping, kneeing, elbowing, painful and joyful combative training.. to find my own ignorance. In other words being honest with myself.. and others..
Like what I said.. you’re not being honest.. it might have something to do with your training methodology Dale shihan… get it yet?
*Sixth don’t forget I’ve seen you do Bujinkan stuff..move, teach and demo skills… but NEVER fighting skills.. I’ve known you for many many years Dale shihan… and have many tapes with you on them…
So I’m not talking out my back side like you are about me and my personal training, living, or teaching…
Like I said.. you should be ashamed of yourself and ponder what it is you believe and say in public about others… it’s not very becoming…. You just are not being honest…

I believe J B... I went slow and it was simple enough for even you to understand... and try to keep away from the same old.. "it's his way or no way" BS...

Dale shihan.. whay not visit Dallas agin and see for yourself and stop the lies.. ?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Dale Seago]

At the risk of repeating myself:

Originally Posted by Dale Seago
. . .you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).

Ralph, your entire written "body of work" on the 'net makes my points for me far better than I can do myself.

 

[Don Roley]

What a nasty, mean spirited post by Ralph Severe! It is not something we can really debate with substance, just a series of attacks. I am so glad it appears that Dale Seago is right and Severe is not a current representative of the Bujinkan. We do not need such petty attitudes and actions. Not that we are free of idiots mind you.

 

[r.severe]

"pot calling the kettle black"

Both of you are so weak...

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Blind]

If I am not mistaken, Hatsumi sensei has said that you will never understand the truth of martial arts if you stick to the idea of what is strong or weak, actually I think the truth to this is we are all weak and can be killed very easily(how many people have slipped and died while taking a shower one wonders)...to believe you are strong is a really dangerous mind set, what you seem to be saying is you can beat these guys in a fight, if it was a fair fight maybe(no offence to anyone here)...I have seen you move, you were quite fast and definately powerful, like one of my teachers at home actually, but really with the attitude you are displaying you will be the ultimate loser(my unenlightened opinion). Really you talk about sparring and say that most Bujinkan people are crap at it, yep your probably right and I agree that many Bujin people probably go ahead too early on the feeling ride and forget about resistance of the opponent, I have trained with a lot of people who I feel I could crunch really easily, but if someone gets good and thats what we are all working to I believe, or at least I think thats what most peoples intention is it may get distorted, size can be as much a hindrance as a help, at most peoples skill level being big will get you further sure, a good big man will beat a good little man or whatever, but I believe the essence of the art contains a lot more than that, if you believe the stories in Essence of ninjutsu then it is quite plainly illustrated(Jutaro Vs. Choshiryu something about the butterfly dance method I don`t have a reference here).Anyway this is my first ever post and really I prefer not to because I am still a very ignorant person, I like reading though and (un?)fortunately I have too much time at a computer so I do nothing but read these things, you do raise some good points and definately you get conversation going which seems to provoke a lot of constructive conversation. My one wish is that you stop using the I have been in real fights line, good for you you, I once ended up hospitalizing a person myself (to my personal disgust)and have had a few other events that mostly came about because of lack of awareness, I am still alive, probably I still would be had I not trained, I just think that you for a person who seems quite intelligent, have wrapped yourself up in the I can win and I am strong way of thinking, and by the way it is a pointless statement saying stuff like you guys just hide on the net, because where are you writing that??

That is my first ever post, I don`t like writing much because it is so easily misunderstood, but I just want to learn and while I get good points from this forum on a very rare occasion, it gets boring reading the same thing over and over, if I had my way Frank Dux discussion should be banned, who cares if someone wants to waste their pocket money on the guy to live a fantasy? Take care.