Tell me about your forms

[skribs]

I want people to try to approach this thread differently than other threads. Before you read any of the other replies, I want you to write your reply to my question. Then, go ahead and discuss the other threads. (This is sort of like a similar request recently to post questions, but no answers, I want to start this thread with answers, and then follow up with discussion).

What I'm curious about is the forms your art/style/school has. Or if you don't have forms, why that is. Some things I'm curious about:

• What art/style you are taking.
• The purpose of your forms.
• The length of your forms.
• The number of forms in your curriculum.
• Are your forms linear in progression or is there different orders you can learn them in?
• Are your forms rigid in their execution or open to interpretation and/or modification?
• The pacing of your forms.
• Anything you can think of that I haven't even thought of.

I'm curious how many different answers there are.

 

[now disabled]

I want people to try to approach this thread differently than other threads. Before you read any of the other replies, I want you to write your reply to my question. Then, go ahead and discuss the other threads. (This is sort of like a similar request recently to post questions, but no answers, I want to start this thread with answers, and then follow up with discussion).

What I'm curious about is the forms your art/style/school has. Or if you don't have forms, why that is. Some things I'm curious about:

• What art/style you are taking.
• The purpose of your forms.
• The length of your forms.
• The number of forms in your curriculum.
• Are your forms linear in progression or is there different orders you can learn them in?
• Are your forms rigid in their execution or open to interpretation and/or modification?
• The pacing of your forms.
• Anything you can think of that I haven't even thought of.

I'm curious how many different answers there are.

Aikido

The rest unfortunately is zero unless you count the Bokken and Jo suburi and kumitachi

 

[skribs]

Aikido

The rest unfortunately is zero unless you count the Bokken and Jo suburi and kumitachi

I don't know enough Japanese to know if I'd count those.

 

[now disabled]

I don't know enough Japanese to know if I'd count those.

they are not forms as you would think of them and the kumitachi are two man

 

[skribs]

they are not forms as you would think of them and the kumitachi are two man

Care to elaborate? And if you would think of them as forms...that's what I want to hear about!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I want people to try to approach this thread differently than other threads. Before you read any of the other replies, I want you to write your reply to my question. Then, go ahead and discuss the other threads. (This is sort of like a similar request recently to post questions, but no answers, I want to start this thread with answers, and then follow up with discussion).

What I'm curious about is the forms your art/style/school has. Or if you don't have forms, why that is. Some things I'm curious about:

• What art/style you are taking.
• The purpose of your forms.
• The length of your forms.
• The number of forms in your curriculum.
• Are your forms linear in progression or is there different orders you can learn them in?
• Are your forms rigid in their execution or open to interpretation and/or modification?
• The pacing of your forms.
• Anything you can think of that I haven't even thought of.

I'm curious how many different answers there are.

I'll be addressing two different sets of forms. I'll describe them first, then get to the questions you asked. The art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, but a sub-style of my own (currently called Shojin-ryu Nihon Goshin Aikido).

Classical Forms. These are short, stylized, single-technique forms. They contain a (usually) static "attack" like a wrist grip, an entry from the defender, and a finishing technique. Some styles would call these "one-step kata". These have been a part of NGA at least since its introduction to the US. Given that they follow the Daito-ryu tradition somewhat, I'd say they (probably in a different form) were always part of NGA.

• These are generally considered the starting point for learning each technique. Some instructors consider them the "truest" (and most important) form of the technique, but that's not my view. I see them as being the initial approach to teaching the principles. While we name them by the finishing technique, I find the entry more important in the actual form. I don't really care if they don't get a working Arm Bar finish - I want to see the control (essentially an arm drag) from the entry.
• Each of these takes a couple of seconds to do, at most.
  
• There are 50 of these, divided into 5 "Classical Sets" of 10 that correspond to the 5 student ranks after white.
  
• These forms are each a separate thing. Later forms do not build on earlier ones.
• Whether they are rigid or not depends upon the instructor. The instructor who brought NGA to the US often taught slightly (or even significantly) different versions. Other instructors see a "one right way" approach as simpler, and can be sticklers about detail. For me, I'm okay with pretty significant variations, so long as the student has a reason for them, and they are at least as functional as what I taught. Change a stance, but everything is solid? I don't care a whit.
• There's really no "pacing" to these, since they are so short.

Long-form Kata. These I added over the last 3 years (though their development started probably 18 years ago). These all follow the same footwork pattern (with some necessary adjustments). The first one (which defines the pattern) is very nearly the first 10 Classical Forms linked together in a continuous flow. The second uses the pattern for strikes. The third uses the pattern for single-stick work. The fourth is for double-stick work. The fifth is staff work (bo or jo).

• I created these for all the following purposes (and probably some others I've forgotten): for students to have something to work solo on, to be able to run several people through movements at the same time in sync, to give injured folks something to practice, to have something for clumsy folks to use for balance and transition work, to use as a warm-up, to give me something to fiddle with when I'm training solo, because I thought it'd be interesting. Oh, and because I found out some people really enjoy forms (learned that from a student who'd trained Shotokan, and always warmed up with a Shotokan kata). They also help ingrain basic movement patterns in the muscles.
• Each takes about 30-60 seconds, depending how fast you want to move.
• There are 5 (you probably figured that out by now). I've actually made some others, but thought 5 was sufficient for our purposes.
• There is a bit of a progression. I purposely re-use the basic pattern from the first one, to try to make the others easier to learn (and so folks could actually do 2 different ones side-by-side). And the weapons progression matches how I prefer to address it in the curriculum.
• Hell, I can't even decide what some of the moves are supposed to be. As long as they're doing a rear something with the right hand when the right hand is supposed to be doing a rear elbow, I'm okay with it - with the same caveats as before. Once they learn them, I encourage them to tinker a bit and change things some (less so in the first one, because it's based on Classical, and is the basis for the other patterns).
• These can (and should) be done fast or slow, hard or soft, smooth or broken. The one thing I adamantly refuse to allow is repetition of the same approach over and over - that starts to make the form its own purpose, and that's not the purpose of the form.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they are not forms as you would think of them and the kumitachi are two man

The kumitachi I've experienced are short, 2-man forms. I'd count those. Even the basic 4-direction sword cut exercise is basically a short form.

 

[Balrog]

I train in and teach Songahm Taekwondo. We have 9 colored belt forms and 9 Black Belt forms. The colored belt forms should be learned in order, although some schools choose to block teach and the students learn the forms out of order. The Black Belt forms are not learned out of order.

Forms are not modifiable until 6th Degree Black Belt. At that rank, we are given 66 moves and we get to make up 30 of our own. Form lengths range from 18 moves at White Belt up to 99 moves at 9th Degree.

The purpose of our forms is pretty much the same as everyone else. It's a method to practice technique and gain discipline and self-control.

 

[skribs]

The purpose of our forms is pretty much the same as everyone else. It's a method to practice technique and gain discipline and self-control.

That is a very generalized statement of what forms do. Some are there mainly for the techniques, some mainly for the discipline and self-control, some to help with balance and general movement, etc.

@gpseymour

I've never thought before of forms being used as a warmup. That's...actually a brilliant approach.

I just wish we had more kicks in our Taekwondo forms for those to be an acceptable warmup for Taekwondo sparring!

As to your comment about the same movement pattern allowing the same ones to be done side-by-side...I see pros and cons to that. In my Taekwondo school, our Forms 1-5 and Advanced Forms 1-3 have the same movement pattern and those are easy to split the class into doing different ones. But some of those have a little bit different timing and later forms are dissimilar. However, they help work on different movement patterns, so there's the plus side.

 

[pdg]

What I'm curious about is the forms your art/style/school has. Or if you don't have forms, why that is. Some things I'm curious about:

• What art/style you are taking.
• The purpose of your forms.
• The length of your forms.
• The number of forms in your curriculum.
• Are your forms linear in progression or is there different orders you can learn them in?
• Are your forms rigid in their execution or open to interpretation and/or modification?
• The pacing of your forms.
• Anything you can think of that I haven't even thought of.

I'm curious how many different answers there are.

ITF taekwon-do, using Chang-Hon set of patterns.

Purpose is open to debate. There's the book explanation, and then...

Length varies from 19 to 72 moves for the full patterns.

24 official forms, plus one that was removed completely and one that was replaced and renamed (in a variety of orders), so a possible 26. Plus 3 fundamental exercises that could be seen as mini patterns, plus any number of set drills, with and without partners.

In our branch, the main patterns are learned in a set order - one for each of the 9 colour belts, 3 per Dan level (1st-4th), 2 for 5th Dan and one for 6th.

If modified, they're no longer recognised as the same pattern. Interpretation of what each move does, well, there's the book...

There is a set pace, but when I've done them much faster or slower (to work on flow, and to concentrate effort with balance etc.) there's been no untoward comments. But officially, I wouldn't be performing the pattern as intended.

 

[pdg]

I've never thought before of forms being used as a warmup. That's...actually a brilliant approach.

I just wish we had more kicks in our Taekwondo forms for those to be an acceptable warmup for Taekwondo sparring!

I'll use patterns as part of a warmup - and there's one advantage to the deeper stances and the sine wave motion, it gets the hips moving.

 

[skribs]

So I'll go ahead and answer now. KKW Taekwondo. The school I went to as a kid had tons of forms. We had...

• Exercises, which were like mini-forms and I'm pretty sure were specific to our school. If I remember right, there was an exercise for every test, and there were 28 tests on the way to black belt (7 colors and 4 tests per color)
• Kibon, or basic forms, either 1-3 or 1-5
• Palgwe forms 1-8
• Taegeuk forms 1-8

I didn't learn all of these. I only made it to green belt. And I was 11 by the time I quit, saw absolutely no point in forms (in fact went on a rant one day about how forms are stupid), so I don't really have much else to say on them.

• Are your forms linear in progression or is there different orders you can learn them in?
• Are your forms rigid in their execution or open to interpretation and/or modification?
• The pacing of your forms.
• Anything you can think of that I haven't even thought of.

Number and Length

At my school, we have 5 Kibon forms and 8 Palgwe forms. From what I understand the Palgwe forms my Master got from his master before him, and so only schools run by these two masters use these forms. Most of them are quite different from the other Palgwe forms I've seen on Youtube. We also do each of the Kukkiwon black belt forms, but also an extra form in between. For example, we have Koryo Hyung (official form) and Koryo Il Jang. Then Keumgang Hyung (official) and Keumgang Il Jang. The "Il Jang" version shares some similarities with the official, but has extra parts added that are a lot more complex. Our smallest form is around 20 moves, and our biggest form is 66 moves. So far, I've learned 18 of these poomsae.

Our demo team also has 3 dance forms (which you REALLY don't want to see me do) and 1 form to music, which was designed by me with the help of my students.

We also have punch defense drills starting at white belt (yellow belt for kids), kick defense starting at green belt, and adults have hand grab defenses starting at white belt. If you consider these forms (we don't call them forms, but others certainly would, like @gpseymour for example), then we have an additional 112 forms that I've learned so far.
In our hapkido classes, we have a bunch more, as these basically take up the entire curriculum. I'm halfway to black belt and I've learned 47 of these so far (27 were for Yellow belt test alone).

We also have combinations that are tested on, which include punches and kicks combined with footwork. These are rote memorized and we drill them every class. If you count these as forms, then we have 8 intermediate kick drills, 3 intermediate jump kick drills, 15 advanced punch drills, and 20 advanced kick drills, 10 advanced jump kick drills, and 5 sparring team drills. This adds up to 61 memorized drills.

There's also weapon forms. 15 techniques for nunchaku (#5 is more of a form, the rest are drills), 2 forms for bo staff (one with a partner and one by yourself, the partner one can be done standing in place or with movement), 8 drills for eskrima, 1 knife form (there are 10 knife defense in the 112 defense drills), and 3 sword forms. So we have 7 longer weapon forms and 22 smaller weapon techniques or drills.

This is what I've learned so far. There's more that I haven't learned yet, and as I'm basically the highest belt at my school*, I haven't seen anyone else do anything higher, either.

*Aside from the master, of course. But also there's one guy higher than me, but he's new to our curriculum so even though he's higher rank than me and a MUCH better martial artist than me, he's playing catch-up on all of these and I end up teaching him a lot of this stuff.

Purpose

My Master once stated that he chose the Palgwe forms over the Taegeuk forms for the deeper stances. He wants us to build leg strength and flexibility, and get used to a deep stance for our self defense purpose. His explanation is that his experience in Special Forces told him that if you're fighting in a deep stance, you can go up or down, but in a taller stance you only have one direction you go.

I also see the forms as a great way to help control your body in various ways:

• Have the discipline to maintain proper stance and control over the parts of your body NOT involved in a technique
• To have proper footwork when turning
• To be able to control which part of your body moves and which way it moves (I see this in about half our white belt adults and the majority of our yellow belt kids, that they have trouble following simple turns exactly as described. Getting this down helps teaching back kicks and such later on).
• To reinforce many of the techniques and concepts taught in simpler drills
• To teach proper breathing while performing the techniques and help your body develop a rhythm for the techniques

Our demo team forms have a simple purpose: look cool.

Our defense drills serve to teach self defense techniques in a way that build on each other. At the white belt, you learn simple block and strike combos. But by red belt you are learning how to block and transition into a grab and throw, and then back into a strike for a finishing blow. (Hey, that rhymed!) The adults do hand grabs, and it starts off with a simple grab in front of you, moves into a 2-hand grab for green belt, and then grabs behind you for blue belt. This way you can see the application from different situations.

Our 61 tested combinations serve the purpose of getting used to the footwork you can use with those combinations, as well as how to string attacks together. For example, a cross-elbow strike followed by a chop, or a reverse punch followed by a backfist. There's also integration of punches and kicks side-by-side, and a progression from simple kicks to advanced kicks to combinations of advanced kicks.

The weapon stuff is mainly to get familiarization with the weapons. We don't do them enough to be proficient in their use, but we do them enough that I could use them in a standard self defense situation. For example, I'm not going to win any Kendo or HEMA championships, but I'm sure I can effectively swing a sword at someone who breaks into my home and at the very least make him bleed.

Progression

Our forms are very linear as they are tied to your belt rank. They do all build on the ones before them, even if some of them have very little of the previous form in them.

Execution

Our forms are performed slowly and one technique or combo at a time. There is a pace each form is done at. Most of our forms are done slow and deliberate, with a few fast pieces or one-two combinations. But our Advanced Form #7 has a brisker pace and Advanced Form #8 is even slower than everything else. The smaller forms are done much quicker.

Our forms are also very rigid in how they are performed, ESPECIALLY the demo-team form. I tell my students that everyone performing at an A level at different times is going to look worse than everyone performing at a B level in synchronization with each other. In execution, we want to see timing discipline as much as the form itself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is a very generalized statement of what forms do. Some are there mainly for the techniques, some mainly for the discipline and self-control, some to help with balance and general movement, etc.

@gpseymour

I've never thought before of forms being used as a warmup. That's...actually a brilliant approach.

I just wish we had more kicks in our Taekwondo forms for those to be an acceptable warmup for Taekwondo sparring!

I'm surprised to hear that TKD forms aren't kick-heavy. I guess if I'd been paying attention to that when watching the vids posted on MT, I'd have noticed. If I were teaching TKD, I'd probably end up creating an unofficial "warm up form" for that purpose.

As to your comment about the same movement pattern allowing the same ones to be done side-by-side...I see pros and cons to that. In my Taekwondo school, our Forms 1-5 and Advanced Forms 1-3 have the same movement pattern and those are easy to split the class into doing different ones. But some of those have a little bit different timing and later forms are dissimilar. However, they help work on different movement patterns, so there's the plus side.

In our kata, the timing is identical, because we take the timing and flow from the Classical kata. It's not a necessary timing (I sometimes practice changing that timing up, and suggest others do, too), but it's natural since we tend to think of it that way. That means if I provide a verbal count, everyone is in the same place and moving in the same direction going from 3 (Arm Bar, Elbow and Front or Turning kick, Upward and downward stick strikes, or turning spear thrust) to 4 (Mugger's Throw, Turn to Front Kick, Kneeling Stick Strike to knee, or short sweep and low staff strike). It actually gets a bit confusing, because the parts are interchangeable. I often find myself doing single-stick moves during the double-stick kata, for instance, if I haven't done that kata much lately.

 

[Balrog]

I'm surprised to hear that TKD forms aren't kick-heavy. I guess if I'd been paying attention to that when watching the vids posted on MT, I'd have noticed. If I were teaching TKD, I'd probably end up creating an unofficial "warm up form" for that purpose.

Depends on the style, I guess. Songahm forms start out with kicks from White Belt on up.

 

[pdg]

I'm surprised to hear that TKD forms aren't kick-heavy.

There are kicks of one sort or another in the majority of our patterns, but on a move count basis they're in the minority - certainly not "kick heavy".

For instance, my current pattern has 37 moves - of those there are 3 snap kicks and one knee.

Some higher patterns have more kicks, but not much more on a percentage of moves per pattern.

If I were teaching TKD, I'd probably end up creating an unofficial "warm up form" for that purpose.

Or just do what we do now - if the lesson plan involves a lot of kicks, or we're sparring, then kicks form part of the warm-ups.

Not a massive amount of kicks mind, maybe like 10 snap, 10 rising, 10 side, 10 rear, 10 hook, off each leg, interspersed with other exercises, maybe 2 or 3 times.

Or high leg lift to front, then to rear, then into a lunge - keep swapping legs so you're doing a "ministry of silly walks" down the 30 metre hall and back...

There's lots of options to warm up for kicking that don't need a set form to accomplish.

 

[skribs]

There are kicks of one sort or another in the majority of our patterns, but on a move count basis they're in the minority - certainly not "kick heavy".

For instance, my current pattern has 37 moves - of those there are 3 snap kicks and one knee.

Some higher patterns have more kicks, but not much more on a percentage of moves per pattern.

Yeah. Our second basic form probably has the most kicks of any of our forms (12 kicks). But it's also a real simple form and it's just the same kick repeated over and over again.

In fact, our first 9 forms have either no kick or only front kick, and after that there's side kicks and jumping crescent kicks. Very rarely is there any sort of kick you'd expect to see in Taekwondo sparring (ax kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick).

 

[pdg]

Yeah. Our second basic form probably has the most kicks of any of our forms (12 kicks). But it's also a real simple form and it's just the same kick repeated over and over again.

In fact, our first 9 forms have either no kick or only front kick, and after that there's side kicks and jumping crescent kicks. Very rarely is there any sort of kick you'd expect to see in Taekwondo sparring (ax kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick).

Taking that into account, how kicking forms such a small percentage of the moves in the patterns, it's curious how the reputation of "tkd is just kicks, nobody punches or strikes" is so prolific.

I guess it's because there's so many armchair experts - they've watched a bit of the Olympics on TV, seen some demos and decided that's all there is to it.

Then they make YouTube videos about how it's such an ineffective and incomplete art...

 

[pdg]

Actually, about forms/kata/patterns...

A while ago I analysed some videos for some shotokan kata and 'translated' them into using ITF versions of the moves, stances and transitions.

This has made me want to revisit that, and also look at forms from other arts too (including the other variations on tkd).

I found it quite interesting and introduces different perspectives on how to integrate moves and their possible applications.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, about forms/kata/patterns...

A while ago I analysed some videos for some shotokan kata and 'translated' them into using ITF versions of the moves, stances and transitions.

This has made me want to revisit that, and also look at forms from other arts too (including the other variations on tkd).

I found it quite interesting and introduces different perspectives on how to integrate moves and their possible applications.

I do that sometimes with forms from other styles. I'm never trying to learn their version, but to use it as a pattern for playing with what I already know. I think that practice is what lead me to create 5 forms off the same basic pattern.

 

[skribs]

Taking that into account, how kicking forms such a small percentage of the moves in the patterns, it's curious how the reputation of "tkd is just kicks, nobody punches or strikes" is so prolific.

I guess it's because there's so many armchair experts - they've watched a bit of the Olympics on TV, seen some demos and decided that's all there is to it.

Then they make YouTube videos about how it's such an ineffective and incomplete art...

I think it's because a lot of schools just teach the form and the sparring. And the form is mainly for demonstration purposes and there isn't any practical lesson in there (what I understand Karate does with Bunkai). Not that there isn't a practical lesson, but that's how the schools use the forms.

The rest of class is then devoted to sparring, and WTF sparring is mostly kicks.