Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono Left Hand Lapel Grab

[MJS]

Any other variations out there that people do? Anything that you'd change, do differently, etc?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Any other variations out there that people do? Anything that you'd change, do differently, etc?

I would just like to point out that I spaced what tech we were talking about on my last post. Instead of a lifting heel palm, you are punching off the hip to get the hyperextension. Sorry.
Sean

 

[Yoshin9]

Personally, if someone is going to give me a gift, ie: in this case, their hand grabbing me, why not take advantage of it, and punish them? I mean, you do something they probably wont expect...grab onto their hand, marry it to your chest, and attack them. So many things we can do from here.

That is why my teacher says, "If someone grabs you say thank you!" because you know right where that hand it. Grabbing the hand that is grabbing you is what we call posting, to pin it in place so it is still there after you hit them, then it's there for joint locks.

A slight variation if you have time for it is the hands up surrender position, then smash your arm down at the inside elbow which causes him to lean in forcefully meeting the punch that you sent out at the same time you smashed down on the inside of the elbow. Think Wing Chun short vertical fist punch here.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Depends whether it's a) a stiff-arm grab cum shove to pave the way for something coming fast off the right hand; b) a grab and posture; or c) a grab and pull with something coming off said right hand!

Imo, Lone Kimono works best in the first two scenarios. A grab and shove (especially by a bigger guy) would almost force you to drop back into a RNB (Purposeful Compliance). Likewise, a grab and posture can easily be countered with the Ideal Phase tech.

With a grab and pull, however, I would not bother with Lone Kimono as it is written. Hard to straighten a bent arm; and worse yet, in that quarter-beat of time while you're fiddling with said bent arm, you might just get clocked by the guy's right arm.

Better to drop forward (still Purposeful Compliance) and launch a left upward elbow (right hand pinning the grabbing arm) which doubles as a shield against the incoming right arm and maybe followup with a downward heel-palm claw ala Thrusting Wedge; and then a clinch with a left knee strike etc etc...

As always, the solution should be 'contextual', the way I read it...

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Was mucking around with the idea of defenses against a left-hand lapel grab last night; and here are more idle thoughts:

1) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and shove; your right leg leads - Counter with Lone Kimono (Purposeful Compliance by dropping into RNB is natural due to the momentum of the attack).

2) Against a left-hand stiff-arm grab and posture; your right leg leads - Counter with Lone Kimono or Mace of Aggression; depending on whether you wish to create or deny space.

3) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and retract; your right leg leads - Counter with Mace of Aggression (Why fight the pull and lose a half to quarter beat of reaction time? Move into the attacker's space and drop him!).

4) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and shove; your left leg leads - If the grab and shove spins you counterclockwise due to your left leg being forward, how about countering with the movement pattern from Parting Wings? Shove comes in; you drop back into a LNB; your left hand strikes to the eyes and shields against the attacker's right arm; your right arm slams the grabbing hand away with an extended outward block; you then follow up with the rest of ther sequence. I think it would work.

2) Against a left-hand stiff-arm grab and posture; your left leg leads - You can still counter with Parting Wings; but instead of dropping back (Create space), you might wish to push drag forward into a LNB (Deny space). Either launch forward or drop back depending on whether you wish to create or deny space.

3) Against a left hand stiff-arm grab and retract; your left leg leads - Parting Wings with a push drag forward is one option; but how about Shield and Mace? Right VOB strikes the grabbing arm away; left fist breaks the ribs simultaneously (substitute rib punch with a half-fist to the throat so as to shield against the right hand?); you follow up with the rest of the sequence.

How about applying the same reasoning with Delayed Sword? Depending on whether it's a push or a pull and whether your right or left leg is leading, you might end up defending with other techs such as:

1) Mace of Aggression; Triggered Salute; Thrusting Wedge etc (Pulling; your right leg leads);

2) Attacking Mace (Shoving; your left leg leads)

3) Flashing Mace, Flashing Wings; Parting Wings; Shield and Mace etc (Pulling; your left leg leads)

Endless possibilities depending on context!

Just ideas; nothing more... and stuff to play with when I get back home from my secondment!

 

[K-man]

There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.

My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.

Good thread! :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.

My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.

Good thread! :asian:

Launching back will lesson the force of that punch; however, Lone Kimono happens before you can pull him into a punch. The fact my left hand would be checking, I may just block or parry that punch on the way.
Sean

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

There are several variations of the techniques that have been described here and we train some of them to explain moves in various kata. Each would be very effective with a compliant partner but in an high energy andrenalised fight situation these techniques may be too complicated. Not much mention has been made of the punch that will follow the grab. I'll guarantee that if I grab your lapel I will hit you in the face or throat before you touch my arm. We have pressure tested this in our dojo with headguards and the person doing the wrist grab gets hit 100% of the time and the person attacking the elbow about 80%, and these guys know what's coming. These aren't good odds so unless you're one of the fastest guys around it's pretty high risk. Remember, in the dojo you know what is about to happen, on the street you don't and therefore you have less time to respond.

My preferred response is to forget the hand grabbing the lapel. It is no threat.The 'flinch response', that is natural defence, would bring your hands up to protect against the punch, if it were to arrive, as you move straight in to attack the head. Under pressure, good guy 100%, bad guy zero.

Good thread! :asian:

That's why I believe it's important to understand what specifically we're defending against. Is it a lapel grab with the left hand pulling you into an attack, in which case because you're dragged forward and off-balance, you lose a beat of time in trying to drop back into your right neutral bow, and probably end up getting clanged by the right punch? Or is it a stiff-arm grab with the intent of shoving you back and off-balance, your arms thrown wide open, so that the attacker can brain you with his incoming right punch?

Lone Kimono works best in the second situation as the attacker's momentum almost forces you to drop back into the right neutral bow, in which case, you're not focusing on the grabbing arm per se, but using it as a leverage point to execute a contact manipulation attack against your attacker, thereby canceling his width and depth.

Were you to counter with Lone Kimono in the event of a grab and pull however, I agree that you would very likely get clanged.

Think about it in terms of beats of timing:

Against a grab and shove
Beat 1 - Attacker stiff-arms you

Beat 2 - The punch begins to come in off his right hand; you purposefully comply, going with the momentum, dropping back into your RNB and simultaneously pinning and striking the the grabbing arm

Beat 3 - He arches back and turns counterclockwise, thus aborting the punch attempt

Beat 4 - You follow up with the rest of the sequence (strike the arm diagonally downwards to bring his upper body low; handsword to the throat)

But...

Against a grab and pull
Beat 1 - Attacker pulls you in with the grab

Beat 2 - The punch begins to come in off his right hand; You lurch forward

Beat 3 - The punch connects as you are in the process of dropping back into your RNB, unless you get lucky and he's slow off the mark; or you're so freakishly fast that the punch does not land before you successfully drop into your RNB

Beat 4 - If you manage to avoid the punch or roll with the impact, your strike to the arm has its desired effect and the attacker arches back and turns counterclockwise

Beat 5 - You follow up with the rest of the sequence (strike the arm diagonally downwards to bring his upper body low; handsword to the throat)

Just my thoughts on the technique...

 

[K-man]

If you look carefully at the video it shows a complying partner with no intention of striking. Now, if this was the case of someone posturing then the techniques shown would work like a charm. And, I don't have a problem with the technical aspects of the moves demonstrated. They flow and there is no doubt they would be effective. I just worry that you won't have time to deal with the grabbing hand and avoid the incoming strike. I would prefer to be way ahead of the game and deal with the grabbing hand when safe to do so.
It's an unfortunate aspect of 'sport' karate that we have the impression that we will have space or distance, and distance equals time. If someone is in your face and then makes a move you will have no time to worry about the arm no matter which way it's trying to go.
Now if I was quick enough to see what was happening I would be moving diagonally to the right front, brushing outside the left elbow with my left arm as my arm rises, striking with the right hand to the attacker's head. :asian: