Teaching poomsae to groups of children

[andyjeffries]

We always teach poomsae in blocks of 4-6 movements, repeated until everyone gets it and then we add the next 4-6. This is the way my instructor has had me teach them over the past 20 years. However, the group size at his club (that I've now taken over since his death) has never been more than 4 or 5.

Since starting my own club I now have a "large" group of students (about 12-14) all on the same grade, and I have to admit it's been hard teaching that large a group and keeping them all on the same page. I don't move on to the next set until the maximum of all people "get it" or about 4 repetitions. By the end of that session, they are all ok, need practice but are ok.

However, the next week 3/4 have forgotten most/part of it. I've had to have at least 3 sessions, when we go back to the beginning and start again. This feels very wasteful and I'm sure is boring for the kids.

So I've been thinking about the next one. What I'm tempted to do is spend half a session for 3 sessions, each session learning 1/3 of the pattern. That should take less time overall, give the kids less to learn in one go and each week and mean on those sessions it's not just poomsae all the time.

Thoughts? Anyone have any other/better ideas?

Cheers,


Andy

 

[Manny]

Teaching poomsa to children is a chore!! Even for the teens is a chore, they simply don't realize poomsae is the core of TKD and they think poomsae is boring and the kids only want to focus in kicking drills (to perform nice tornado kicks) and sparring.

The way I teachj poomsae is in 1/2 poomsae blocks, this way one class I teach only one half and we repeat it for 3 classes tehn I ad the other half part of the poomsae and then we practice the complet poomsae, this way it will take me no more than 6 lesoso to learn the poomsae and the next classes I only polish the poomsae. Even with this there are some students that simply don't get it and the key is to practice-practice-practice till get muscle memory and this is acomplish by hundred of reps.

Even myself, when don't pracice poomsae it's hartd but not dificult to perfomr the complete poomsae, for example I've been focus on taeguk 4,5 and 6 with my students and last nigh doing clss with my sambonim it was a little dificult to perform taeguk 7 and 8 because I have not practiced lately, however within minutes I could do them very well, all I need it was to perform these taegusk alone and with the guidance of sambonim to remeber all the movements.

Poomsae is something that we must do every class or at least once a week.

Manny

 

[chrispillertkd]

Three pieces of advice. 1) Cut the number of moves being introduced from 4-6 down to 2. Introduce the first 2 moves and have them repeat it maybe 3 times. Then add on another 2 moves and repeat three times, etc. as you're doing now. Less movements will make it easier to get down for the students, especially if they are children.

2) Cut the group in half. If you think the sheer number of students is causing difficulty in getting the material across to people send half of them to work on the heavy bag, do kicking drills, practice hand techniques, or whatever (supervised by a higher belt or assistant instructor) until you've got the other half of the group doing the pattern reasonably well. Then switch groups.

3) Don't worry if they haven't gotten the entire pattern down in one night. There's nothing wrong with stopping in the middle and picking things back up the next session. Patterns should be trained at nearly every session anyway.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Jaeimseu]

So I've been thinking about the next one. What I'm tempted to do is spend half a session for 3 sessions, each session learning 1/3 of the pattern. That should take less time overall, give the kids less to learn in one go and each week and mean on those sessions it's not just poomsae all the time.

Thoughts? Anyone have any other/better ideas?

Cheers,


Andy

This is the way I've always done it. I break every form up into roughly equal segments and teach it over a few sessions. Basically, if I have a two month testing cycle, I'd like the students to know the entire sequence by the end of the 3rd week/ 1st month of the cycle. On the first day(s) of a new cycle, I will teach any new techniques/stances, etc. first, separate from the actual poomse.

Like you mentioned, I never do poomse for an entire session--unless it is a special poomse workshop--especially with kids. I try to change things up every 10-15 minutes to keep things moving and prevent boredom. This also means I am able to have them practicing poomse every class, for at least a few minutes.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would make sure that before teaching any number of moves as a series the students first know how to perform each move. Have them do it standing still, moving forward and backward. That way they can later concentrate on which way to mve instead of both that and how t do the move.

 

[Miles]

Andy, how old are the kids? Do you have any assistant instructors?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

the key is to practice-practice-practice till get muscle memory and this is acomplish by hundred of reps.
Manny

How about an alternate way of teaching: by mind. I started out learning poomsae by looking at diagrams, and learnt the first four taegeuks as thinking "left side down block, kick , punch, right side same, front ....(etc)" . I was an academic kid!

Does anyone teach poomsae by telling people to remember the series in their mind, as opposed to what feels right from 100's of repetitions?

 

[Marcy Shoberg]

Does anyone teach poomsae by telling people to remember the series in their mind, as opposed to what feels right from 100's of repetitions?

I've taught poomsae lots of different ways. Like you said, diagrams are what makes the forms sink into my mind. But, they don't work for most of my students (I stubbornly keep teaching with them anyway, though). I'd like to point out that instead of doing a specific number of moves, notice that the Tae Geuk forms break easily into 6 logical segments.
But, the best way I've found to get a group of kids to start getting a poomsae is to have them say things while they practice so it involves more of their brain. For example on one performance they name the arm move, on the next they name the stance, on the next they name whether left or right does the move. Not that they always get it right, but it seems to keep them awake.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We tend to get the instructor to run through the first 4-6 moves with each belt level and then the group go off with a black belt and continue to work on it. We limit this to no more than about 15minutes because a child's attention span doesnt handle much more than that. The big thing we stress to kids is to practice at home in their own time. As my instructor always says, the average form takes less than a minute, so if a child spends a mere five minutes a day in their own time doing form then they can do it 35 times a week, at that rate it really isnt hard to get form down.The only time I ever see my instructor really angry is when he realises someone isnt practicing in their own time. Whether an adult or child he will give you a real serve, and reminds you that if you dont do the work in your own time, then you are not only wasting his time, but the time of all the other students in the class. I make my kids do their form five times EVERY afternoon when they get home from school and it makes a huge difference, and it means less time can be spent in classtime doing repetitious form.

 

[andyjeffries]

Teaching poomsa to children is a chore!! Even for the teens is a chore, they simply don't realize poomsae is the core of TKD and they think poomsae is boring and the kids only want to focus in kicking drills (to perform nice tornado kicks) and sparring.

My kids aren't this bad. They can see that I love poomsae and am happy when they "get it" so they don't seem to dislike it or consider it a chore. They just all find it difficult to some degree.

The way I teachj poomsae is in 1/2 poomsae blocks, this way one class I teach only one half and we repeat it for 3 classes tehn I ad the other half part of the poomsae and then we practice the complet poomsae, this way it will take me no more than 6 lesoso to learn the poomsae and the next classes I only polish the poomsae.

This is good - it shows I'm not crazy thinking about spreading it over multiple sessions. Thanks.

Even with this there are some students that simply don't get it and the key is to practice-practice-practice till get muscle memory and this is acomplish by hundred of reps.

Fingers crossed they'll get it quicker this way.

Even myself, when don't pracice poomsae it's hartd but not dificult to perfomr the complete poomsae, for example I've been focus on taeguk 4,5 and 6 with my students and last nigh doing clss with my sambonim it was a little dificult to perform taeguk 7 and 8 because I have not practiced lately, however within minutes I could do them very well, all I need it was to perform these taegusk alone and with the guidance of sambonim to remeber all the movements. Poomsae is something that we must do every class or at least once a week.

I absolutely agree. I love poomsae so have no difficulty remembering any of them (which is lucky as I no longer have an instructor near me all the time).

Thanks for your thoughts Manny.

 

[andyjeffries]

Three pieces of advice. 1) Cut the number of moves being introduced from 4-6 down to 2. Introduce the first 2 moves and have them repeat it maybe 3 times. Then add on another 2 moves and repeat three times, etc. as you're doing now. Less movements will make it easier to get down for the students, especially if they are children.

Thanks for this. Maybe I'll do this for the younger ones. The older students tend to find the first 4-6 really easy and then bore if they're stuck there too long.

2) Cut the group in half. If you think the sheer number of students is causing difficulty in getting the material across to people send half of them to work on the heavy bag, do kicking drills, practice hand techniques, or whatever (supervised by a higher belt or assistant instructor) until you've got the other half of the group doing the pattern reasonably well. Then switch groups.

Maybe this is an option. I have one assistant instructor, so he could take one half.

3) Don't worry if they haven't gotten the entire pattern down in one night. There's nothing wrong with stopping in the middle and picking things back up the next session. Patterns should be trained at nearly every session anyway.

This is my thinking. My instructor always did them in one night and it worked for him, but he never had the student numbers I have at the same grade at the same time. I know it's not working for me, hence I'm going to try changing it and doing it a different way.

I agree poomsae should be an every session thing! It's core!

Thanks Chris.

 

[andyjeffries]

This is the way I've always done it. I break every form up into roughly equal segments and teach it over a few sessions. Basically, if I have a two month testing cycle, I'd like the students to know the entire sequence by the end of the 3rd week/ 1st month of the cycle. On the first day(s) of a new cycle, I will teach any new techniques/stances, etc. first, separate from the actual poomse.

Thanks James, another vote for me not being crazy wanting to break it up in to multiple sessions. At the moment the bulk of the class is on the same low belt, so they know all the moves (up until now) with only a few stragglers on higher/lower belts. I'll be doing it this way though for when they get there. 3 sessions if they know all the moves, 4 if they need to learn new moves on the first session.

Like you mentioned, I never do poomse for an entire session--unless it is a special poomse workshop--especially with kids. I try to change things up every 10-15 minutes to keep things moving and prevent boredom. This also means I am able to have them practicing poomse every class, for at least a few minutes.

I try to change it up the same as you, but recently I've had to do a couple of "only poomsae" sessions to try and get them ready for their test. I tested about 3/4 of them on Saturday and all did really well and passed. I'm going to do a catch-up test in a few weeks for those that weren't ready. I'm hoping the new mechanism means I won't have to do any more whole-session workshops.

 

[andyjeffries]

I would make sure that before teaching any number of moves as a series the students first know how to perform each move. Have them do it standing still, moving forward and backward. That way they can later concentrate on which way to mve instead of both that and how t do the move.

They can do that. The poomsae I had issues with was only Taegeuk 1 (low blocks, rising blocks, inward blocks, punches and front kicks) - they'd been doing the moves for about 4 months. It was the memorising they had issues with.

 

[andyjeffries]

Andy, how old are the kids? Do you have any assistant instructors?

They are 7-13. There are only two 7 year olds and only one 13 year old. The bulk are 9-11.

I have one assistant instructor at this class, he's a 3rd Dan. He was the guy I trusted most technically, reliability wise and he wanted to get involved in starting a new club with me so he could learn about it for when he wants to open his own class.

 

[andyjeffries]

But, the best way I've found to get a group of kids to start getting a poomsae is to have them say things while they practice so it involves more of their brain. For example on one performance they name the arm move, on the next they name the stance, on the next they name whether left or right does the move. Not that they always get it right, but it seems to keep them awake.

I read about this in your manuscript. I'm going to try splitting this time and see how this goes. If I still have issues, your technique is next!! (I'm experimenting on the students and I only want to change one thing at a time so I can see what made the difference).

However, I am planning on integrating some of your sparring tips in a week or two (now their grading is out of the way).

 

[andyjeffries]

We tend to get the instructor to run through the first 4-6 moves with each belt level and then the group go off with a black belt and continue to work on it. We limit this to no more than about 15minutes because a child's attention span doesnt handle much more than that.

Yeah, that's the problem I'm having at the moment. It was taking whole sessions because there were quite a few memory issues and the grading was coming up. My new plan means that I should be able to keep to my goal (which is aligned with yours) of no more than 15 minutes per session.

The big thing we stress to kids is to practice at home in their own time. As my instructor always says, the average form takes less than a minute, so if a child spends a mere five minutes a day in their own time doing form then they can do it 35 times a week, at that rate it really isnt hard to get form down.The only time I ever see my instructor really angry is when he realises someone isnt practicing in their own time. Whether an adult or child he will give you a real serve, and reminds you that if you dont do the work in your own time, then you are not only wasting his time, but the time of all the other students in the class. I make my kids do their form five times EVERY afternoon when they get home from school and it makes a huge difference, and it means less time can be spent in classtime doing repetitious form.

If only my students would. I say it every session - some do (and it shows), most don't. But at the end of the day, they are all loving Taekwondo, all improving and eager to come each week so I don't want to come down too hard on them. They are still kids after all...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So I've been thinking about the next one. What I'm tempted to do is spend half a session for 3 sessions, each session learning 1/3 of the pattern. That should take less time overall, give the kids less to learn in one go and each week and mean on those sessions it's not just poomsae all the time.

Thoughts? Anyone have any other/better ideas?

I pretty much do the same thing, but I break it down to 1/6th increments when teaching il jang to new students:

I've been working with students on taegeuk iljang. I spend the first half of class (after the warmup) doing reps of the different techniques in the pumse, 30-50 for each side on each technique. In iljang, that would be arae makki, momtong makki, ulgul makki, dwit jireugi, and apchagi.

After that, we begin the form. I started them off the first two classes just doing the reps in the air and then showed them the form with the explanation that this is what it will look like when it all comes together. After that, I had them line up and do kicking drills.

The next two classes, we did the reps in the air followed by performing the first three parts of the pumse; first lateral line, da (left) and ra (right); ap seogi > arae makki > dwit jireugi, both directions, and then the beginning of the ga (forward) line; apkubi > arae makki > dwit jireugi. This was done five times. The remainder of the class was taken up with kicking drills.

The fifth class, which was over the weekend, we did the same, but did the pumse through the first six parts; first lateral line; left and right, first part of the longitudinal line, the second lateral line da & ra; ap seogi > momtong makki > dwit jireugi, and then then the next part of the longitudinal line, ga (forward); apkubi > arae makki > dwit jireugi. This was done five times. The remainder of the class was taken up with kicking drills.

I'm doing technical corrections when working on techniques rather than during the forms, where the only corrections I make are to have the students do the correct technique at the correct point. That way, the students can concentrate on learning the pumse.

My current students range in age; two are teens, two are adults; one is new to the art and the other has been out of the art for over a year. When I taught kids classes at my old dojang, I taught the pumse in this way as well. It seems to have worked out pretty well.

Once they start yi jang, I break it down to thirds.