Tapi-Tapi Vs Contact Sparring

[Guro Harold]

Chad hit on a point that I would like to raise for discussion.

<<Begin Quote
The DB tape focuses largely on attacking and retreating triangles; it is not so much that the footwork is radically different as the subltle change is distance to really hit your opponent rather his stick, or to pull the blow.
End Quote>>


What are some of the differences you have experienced applying FMA, especially Modern Arnis, to fighting as compared to Tapi-Tapi or other flow drills?

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Palusut


What are some of the differences you have experienced applying FMA, especially Modern Arnis, to fighting as compared to Tapi-Tapi or other flow drills?

Since taking up the FMA, I've started to rely less and less on fixed stances and more on dynamic positioning using the FMA footwork. I've also done more baiting (from Tapi-Tapi) and more attacks to the opponent's weapons/limbs.

Cthulhu

 

[dearnis.com]

Easy...in fighting everything goes out the window!! Motions get bigger, sloppier, you gettired faster, etc. Best analogy is think of your trapping drills and how hard is can be to apply them in free sparring.
Where tapi tapi can pay off big is in an appreciation of baiting; where it can make us lazy is the habit of waiting for the 'textbook' response. Remember that w/ many baits Professor used to say 'but in real he is already hit.' That's it in a nutshell; your bait must be believable, which usuually means hitting the guy a few times to prime him to counter it.
Equipment plays a big role too; heavy gloves can inhibit a lot of the grabbing that we take for granted. Is going without them worth it; not to me; I cant afford the lost time at work. I hit my partner with a left hook while stick sparring about a year ago (he ahd grabbed my stick after all...) He dropped, and the knot on his head lasted almost as long as my cast. Good to have the information; sure; better to have worn a glove and not lost 1/2 inch of finger to compression fracture; probably!
The best answer to Palusut's question is probably found by getting some padded sticks, eye protection, and playing a more agressive version of tapi-tapi; add the hits, look for reversals, throw in kicks and punches..
Chad
Oh yeah, forget about 'driving;' the one driving is the one who takes the driver's seat!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Palusut
. . .
What are some of the differences you have experienced applying FMA, especially Modern Arnis, to fighting as compared to Tapi-Tapi or other flow drills? [/B]

From my experience, limited as it may be, . . .

I have seen that in Tapi-Tapi and flow drills the opponents stay within range and 'work' with each other. In hard contact, or sparring I have seen the good use of distancing. i.e. one person constantly backing away.

Just my experience.

Rich

 

[Cruentus]

I agree with Rich that the "range" is different.

Tapi-tapi sparring focuses mainly on the corto range, where contact sparring utilizes more largo and medio ranges. I find that it is difficult to utilize techniques in the corto range with gear (especially w/ flexy sticks) for a number of different reasons. If the stick is a flexy, disarming and trapping with the stick can be difficult. If even with a real stick, you don't get the same reactions sparring as you would in a fight. Hitting a guy in the head w/ a stick is quite different then hitting a helmet w/ a stick. The equipment changes the effectiveness of corto trapping/locking/disarming techniques.

Sparring is great for working largo and medio techniques, however. The distancing and timing skills learned in contact sparring are essential to being a well rounded fighter.

So I feel that both contact sparring (for largo/medio), and Solo baston tapi-tapi and stick grappling (for corto) should be incorperated in the training regimine. For the most part, no one thing is better then the other, for they are only tools to aid fighting and not real fighting in themselves.

 

[dearnis.com]

amen on Paul's flexy-stick comment! even solid blocking becomes problematic..... Working with the soft sticks becomes a lot like other types of sparring; to really benefit you need partners who are humble enough to acknowledge what is going on, and to give realistic feedback.
One interesting variation is one partner with a flex-stick on the offense, really trying to score. The other partner has a hard stick, but can only block, trap, lock disarm, etc. (even then the flex-sticks carn wrap around the blocks, I got a nice forehead cut that way....did I mention eye protection!!)

 

[Guro Harold]

<<BeginQuote - From Paul
Sparring is great for working largo and medio techniques, however. The distancing and timing skills learned in contact sparring are essential to being a well rounded fighter.
EndQuote>>

I agree with you Paul. The interesting thing about Tapi-Tapi is that the Professor taught the full range from Largo-Medio-Corto) but speaking from my own limited experience, implementing the techniques in an dynamic situation takes alot of time and receiving a great deal of hits and humiliation.

Its so cool when a Tapi-Tapi technique is recognized and automatically executed and it works!!!!

The Professor also stressed the striking styles alot when he taught and when he told of his fights, they help bridge the distance gap as well.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Palusut

The Professor also stressed the striking styles alot when he taught and when he told of his fights, they help bridge the distance gap as well.

That's my recollection--he really emphasized the importance of things as simple as banda y banda and up-and-down/rompida for fighting.

One of the big things from tapi-tapi, I think, is that facility in grabbing your opponent's stick when close, even if all you do next is whack them with yours in a real encounter.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador



That's my recollection--he really emphasized the importance of things as simple as banda y banda and up-and-down/rompida for fighting.

One of the big things from tapi-tapi, I think, is that facility in grabbing your opponent's stick when close, even if all you do next is whack them with yours in a real encounter.

Arnisador,

Banda Y Banda, Up-And-Down, and Rompida (* And Figure 8 in my book *). Thanks for bringing these up. It has been a while since I have heard people discuss these techniques / striking styles. I like them and think they add a lot to ones bag of tricks to pull out when you need them.

I use these techniques to close distance. This does not mean I execute them 100% correctly all the time. This is why I still practice and keep on trying.

Good Training to All!

Rich

PS: Happy Independence Day to the United States of America and also to the Republic of the Philippine Islands. Both share July 4th as their Independence days'.
:asian:

 

[Wingman]

PS: Happy Independence Day to the United States of America and also to the Republic of the Philippine Islands. Both share July 4th as their Independence days'.

FYI.
Philippine Independence Day was changed from July 4 to June 12. On June 12, 1898, Filipinos won their independence from Spain. The Americans invaded the islands a year later. After world war 2, the Americans gave the Philippines its independence on July 4, 1946. President Diosdado Macapagal later changed the independence date to June 12. July 4 is regarded as "Philippine-American Friendship Day".

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Wingman

July 4 is regarded as "Philippine-American Friendship Day".

An appropriate thought for this group!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Wingman



FYI.
Philippine Independence Day was changed from July 4 to June 12. On June 12, 1898, Filipinos won their independence from Spain. The Americans invaded the islands a year later. After world war 2, the Americans gave the Philippines its independence on July 4, 1946. President Diosdado Macapagal later changed the independence date to June 12. July 4 is regarded as "Philippine-American Friendship Day".

My Apologies for the incorrect information.

The Book I read it in covered the American 'Colonization' of the Philippines from 1898 to the late 1940's.

I guess I learned something else new today.

Thank you. :asian:

Rich

 

[Guro Harold]

<<BeginQuote
Originally posted by arnisador



That's my recollection--he really emphasized the importance of things as simple as banda y banda and up-and-down/rompida for fighting.

One of the big things from tapi-tapi, I think, is that facility in grabbing your opponent's stick when close, even if all you do next is whack them with yours in a real encounter.
EndQuote>>

It also appeared from my recollection that GM Presas emphasized that he discovered the "Flow" through a number of techniques: Banda Y Banda, Single Sinawali, Double Sinawali, and etc. Tapi-Tapi became an extension of "What if" drill.

For example, what if in the process of using Rompida while blocking a right-handed #1 strike, you grab the stick...Well, you can disarm the stick, you can punoy to the right temple of your opponent. What if when you do that, he grabs your hand? Well, you can trap his hand like so...What if he grabs the stick instead, well, you can strip his hands off the stick, like so...

So this may or may not happen sparring, the opponent will be happy enough to hit you and the head and call it a day. But I have see funny things happen that by using the striking styles I can end up sometimes controlling the opponents stick. The drills then give me options if that happen or if I am trying to setup the opponent.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just a comment,

I do not think that Tapi-Tapi is bad. I think it is a good drill to increase your concept of low and corto in fighting with a stick. I think is a useful tool to add to your bag of knowledge, just like Banda Y Banda, etc, ..., .

Learn all the techniques, this way the one that fits your personal style can be applied by yourself. Also, this may give your further insight into your own training, as you see windows open up before you that may not have been open before.

Just my comments, trying to make sure that the readers of this thread realized it is not a bashing of Tapi-Tapi or of the other techniques or drills mentioned.

Good Training
:asian:

Rich

 

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Just a comment,

I do not think that Tapi-Tapi is bad. I think it is a good drill to increase your concept of low and corto in fighting with a stick. I think is a useful tool to add to your bag of knowledge, just like Banda Y Banda, etc, ..., .

Learn all the techniques, this way the one that fits your personal style can be applied by yourself. Also, this may give your further insight into your own training, as you see windows open up before you that may not have been open before.

Just my comments, trying to make sure that the readers of this thread realized it is not a bashing of Tapi-Tapi or of the other techniques or drills mentioned.

Rich

I concur with Rich. There was no thought of bashing Tapi-Tapi when this thread was created. The purpose was to bridge the gap and share our experiences of when we purposely or accidentally applied Tapi-Tapi in sparring situations.

The more I examine Tapi-Tapi, the more that I realize that it is a powerful template or tool. But just because the template or tool is powerful, doesn't mean that I have full knowledge or control of it in dynamic or random situations.

I remember a sparring situation in Florida that set me on my ear. The first situation was I had to spar a natural lefty. I had to ask myself the following: Was I going to switch to my left hand and he destroy me or was I going to stick with my naturally dominate right hand. Well that lead to the other situation...South paws can tend to be more aggressive because most people fight dominate right, so he tended to press the lead.

I had a time with him until I remembered testing previously switching the left v. right lead role and remembered that alot of what the professor did was show the whole Tapi-Tapi sequence, then break down the isolated techniques. When I remembered those things, I sparred better against the lefty. And some of the simple techniques worked!

At the same event, I decided one bout to fight a natural right-handed person with my left hand. That caused the opponent to also press more because he thought that I was at a dis-advantage. When he pressed in once with a #1, I executed without thinking a snake-circle trap (like the #2 disarm) mobility throw, straight out of left v. right Tapi-Tapi. Those who saw this were in shock. I have witnesses to this!!!

So yes, I probably received more hits than I gave back then, especially at the time, I was new to padded sparring, but the striking styles, footwork, and Tapi-Tapi helped me start developing my natural arsenal of techniques and strategy. To this we owe the Professor and his top students our gratitude for capturing and putting these skills and techniques into a system that can be passed on.

Other systems call theirs "groupings", "what ifs", and "templates", the Professor called his "Tapi-Tapi".