Tapado

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts - General' started by Wingman, May 6, 2002.

  1. Wingman

    Wingman Guest

    Does anybody have any info on Tapado? From what I've heard, the Tapado stick is longer than arnis. The length is from the ground to the practitioner's chest.

    Is Tapado practiced in the US?
     
  2. arnisandyz

    arnisandyz Master Black Belt

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    The Tapado is around 48" in length and a very heavy and powerful 2 handed stick. I believe it is made from a guava branch rather than rattan (I'm not sure). Dog Brothers stick vs other weapons tape shows matchup of a topado stick vs siniwali...those guys are crazy. I have yet to run across anybody teaching it in the US as a stand alone art, maybe you could take some baseball batting lessons and apply it to tapado!:D
     
  3. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Interesting you should mention that. I recently saw a Dog Brothers tape on unmatched weapons, where a couple of people fought with the tapado stick. The stick is considerably longer than your typical escrmia/arnis/kali stick, and a bit thicker as well. The stick was wielded in two hands at the very end of one stick and swung from the shoulder in a large arc. Most of the time, the bouncing motion of the stick off the ground was used to help chamber the stick back on the shoulder. Most of the attacks in the Dog Brothers matches consisted of huge angle #1 or #2 attacks. No real defense with the stick was exhibited.

    As far as instruction in the U.S., I can't say. The guy who brought the stick to the match apparently learned tapado in the Philippines.

    Cthulhu
     
  4. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Damn, arnisandyz beat me to it. :D

    Cthulhu
     
  5. hello,

    Dr. Ron Harris was one of the fighters who fought tapado style on the first series. IIRC, he only used 2 strikes. i believe i read that the system has a 3rd strike and some speculate a 4th angle also. forgot the other fighter's name.

    he is based in New Orleans area and lately has hooked up with John Clements (formerly of HACA - forget what they are called now).

    using the "baseball bat grip" results in powerful swings. and yes, some of the strikes count on the rebound off the ground for it's second strike. "tapado" comes from 2 words, something like tapat and do - tapat means to kill and do is like the chinese/japanese word - the way of. something like that. i may have it wrong. i will see if i can find my notes on it.

    FWIW, i have seen a style called "arnis tapado" which did not use the long sticks, so maybe it's not the "tapado" that is discussed here. it was in one of the IKF special editons, masters and styles.

    HTH.
     
  6. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Yep, Ron Harris was the guy. I think he showed two strikes, but only used one in his fight. I think the other guy was just someone who happened to be there.

    Thanks, Stickgrappler!

    Cthulhu
     
  7. Wingman

    Wingman Guest

    I have not seen the Dog Brothers video on the match-up of Tapado vs sinawali. Can you tell me how tapado matched up against sinawali and other weapons. How about tapado vs. tapado? How would the fight look like? Just wondering ....
     
  8. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    If I remember correctly, both people using the tapado stick went up against Eric "Top Dog" Knaus. Basically, he was able to withstand their blows (nearly always an angle #1, with the occasional #2 tossed in) with what looks like a double-roof block, enter, and whack at his leisure. In one match, he knocks Harris's helmet off.

    I only recall the tape showing tapado vs. sinawalli...I don't remember them matching against other weapons.

    As for tapado vs. tapado, from what I've seen, it'd just look like two guys swingin' big sticks at each other. :)

    Cthulhu

    PS - after watching those fights, I have absolutely no desire to stickfight with Knaus. They're crazy...CRAZY!!!
     
  9. Wingman

    Wingman Guest

    I am quite surprised with the outcome of tapado vs sinawali. I thought tapado would have the advantage because it is longer, therefore it has longer reach. So it is not the weapon but the one who holds the weapon that matters the most.
     
  10. hello,

    not a prob, Cthulu.

    Wingman,

    it most likely would have a reach advantage if the stick/staff was held in "single grip" that is towards one end and have the rest of the stick/staff protruding out like a spear as opposed to the "baseball grip" tapado favors.


    generally, yes, the wielder (implying skill level) is more important than the weapon, however, it also depends on the weapon. say, you had spear vs knife. if the knife wielder is highly skilled, going up against a mediocre spear wielder, the knifer will still have a hard time fighting against the spear. that is an extreme example, but i think you get the point.
     
  11. arnisandyz

    arnisandyz Master Black Belt

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    I agree with the skill level playing a major part of the outcome to a certain point. Pretty much all of Naus' matchups end up with him being the victor, whether he is single or double stick against tapido or nunchacku, or boken, or 3 section staff or whip. Some of this may be swayed however, how would it look on a FMA tape if the baston lost every match?!!! Remember, dog brothers make money from the sale of these tapes, so although the matches are all real, we don't know how much was edited out (possible losing matches?). The reason I though of this is that Cthulhu is video taping our sparring matches and I am eventually going to digitize it on my computer. Oh how easy it would be to take out the parts of me getting my butt kicked and only show me beating down Cthulhu!!!

    But even with this, there's no way in hell I'd get it on with Naus and his bunch...total respect to them.
     
  12. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    In the Dog Brothers' defense regarding the taping of losing matches, I do believe Knaus got beat down in one of the baston vs. bokken matches. I seem to remember the narrator saying that Knaus got a cracked rib in that match.

    Heh...my best match with arnisandyz was one that didn't get taped. I think he planned it that way ;)

    Cthulhu
     
  13. sorry it took a while:

    Harris, Ron. 1990. "The 'Secret' Art of Tapado. Inside Kung-Fu. December. Pp. 46-49.

    P. 46

    "Original Filipino tapado, the way of "old man's stickfighting," was founded in 1960 by Romeo "Nono" C. Mamar, Sr. Only two striking techniques are used in tapado. Each combines both offense and defense in one motion. Both blocks and attacks are executed simultaneously in one count."

    "So Nono began to use a longer stick (about 43 inches) to increase the reach for more effective striking distance. Using a two-handed grip, he generated more power and using the proper body mechanics, he developed more speed."

    "Romeo "Nono" Mamar invented tapado in 1960 at Taloc, Bago City, Negros Occidental, in the Philippines."

    "After mastering many styles of arnis, such as lagas, sinamak, layaw, and uhido, Mamar realized the limitations of the art and stopped practicing for three years."

    ------------------------

    Tapado

    Romeo Mamar

    A long cane (50") style with 3 angles of attack and in which the cane is wielded with either one or both hands. It stresses footwork and delivery of very powerful blows.

    major players : Al Concepcion, Ron Harris, Bebing Lubrido, Mike Vasquez

    *************************************************************

    http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/digests/fmafaq.htm

    ------------------------

    some technical aspects of Tapado. Dr. Ron Harris posted this info to Eskrima Digest.


    Tapado is a contraction of the Hiligaynon word "tapat" and the Oriental word "do". Tapat means "one killing blow" or "you are finished". "Do" means "you do it".

    Tapado is also know as long stickfighting and old man's walking stick method. The standard length is 44". It is practiced using "dos manos" grip. The stick tapers towards the end.

    Thrusts are made after initial striking contact is made and extended towards the opponent.

    Most tapado practitioners only know 2 angles of attack. Dr. Harris hinted that he knew the third.

    Uno is a downward vertical or diagonal strike delivered on th right side of a right-handed practitioner. This angle divides the centerline.

    Dos is a downward vertical, diagonal, or horizontal strike delivered from the left side of a right-handed practitioner. It can be high or low. This angle covers horizontal space.

    [end]
     
  14. bloodwood

    bloodwood Guest

    Dr Maung Gyi also uses and teaches with long poles and has close ties with the Dog Brothers, but I don't know if his system has any Topado base to it. It may just be similar to his Bando system. He uses all sorts of long poles with full swing strikes.
    Scary stuff!!! At the WMAA Camp Dr. Gyi had us blocking full force strikes against long poles using regular rattan sticks. The slanted roof blocks were ok but the #1 & 2 blocks were nasty. A tank would be a good place to be in while blocking one of these strikes. :tank:
     
  15. Stick Dummy

    Stick Dummy Guest

    The Senior students is my "club" do Tapado with rattan and it is VERY IMPRESSIVE against just about any striking implement.

    The techniques from what I have seen can be applied to conventional staffs, and even Waxwood staffs for a faster whip like/type motion.

    They spar frequently and Tapado seems to offer some real enhancements to closing on an opponent, yet maintaining ABSOLUTE control and power.


    A great tool for the toolbox................
     
  16. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Black Belt

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    Tapado is called "ananangkil" in the San Miguel Eskrima system. The ananangkil is a 50" long, 1 1/2" diameter stick that is used with a two-handed grip. Due to the size and weight of the ananangkil, it is difficult to swing for very long using just the muscles of the arms and shoulders. For this reason, the person using the ananangkil must learn to generate speed and power using the legs and waist. Ananangkil drills are therefore used to teach body mechanics and the ability to "stand in" while defending against powerful strikes.

    There are nine basic strikes, and any number of combinations and striking patterns are possible. In addition, segments of the San Miguel Form can also be performed with the ananangkil. Basic two-person drills include striking and thrusting while moving forwards and backwards, either with a “step-shuffle” movement or by bringing the same-side leg forward or backward with each strike.

    San Miguel Eskrima is primarily an espada y daga system, and the other weapons categories (double stick, ananangkil, spear, whip and chain) are considered by some to be included not only to round out the practitioner's weapons skills, but also to develop a training method to internalize the principles of distancing and timing necessary for espada y daga movements. Specifically, the ananangkil aids in power development, and blocking or deflecting its powerful strikes helps to build courage.

    Best,

    Steve Lamade
    San Miguel Eskrima
     
  17. DoctorB

    DoctorB Guest

    The guy mentioned is named Ron Harris, he is living in Baton Rogue, LA at the present time and he also did an article on tapado for Inside Kung Fu about 8 to 10 years ago.

    Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
     
  18. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Black Belt

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    The tapado (ananangkil in our system) is a heavy weapon and can be countered fairly easily if one is secure in his or her ability to block the initial strike (or move outside its arc) and then counter by moving inside. "Fairly easily" is a relative term - one still has to know how to block and move.

    The tapado is of minimal use as weapon unless the proper distance is maintained. The problem lies in the fact that both hands are commited to a heavier weapon that is more difficult to swing than a shorter, lighter one that can be used with either or both hands. Hence, an opponent who gets on the inside and is able to check the tapado user's hands with his or her free hand, other stick (in double stick), or daga (in espada y daga) is able to hit with the free weapon hand. In addition, if the opponent maintains constant forward pressure one he or she is on the inside, the tapado can get tied up and the user overrun.

    Of course, the strength of the tapado is that, if the user is able to maintain the proper distance, he or she can execute powerful strikes that can beat the opponent down. The point of the DBMA segments was that Knaus took that advantage away by closing the gap.

    This would be especially true if the tapado were an edged weapon like a kampilan sword. You would not want to "block" many strikes from a largo range if you were the one with shorter, ligher weapons.

    Another consideration is that if the tapado were significantly lighter it would be much easier to use, and there may be an advantage here due to the extra levearge a longer weapon provides for the user, as well as being able to keep out of range of shorter weapons. As the writer above states, this may well be a question of individual ability.

    Use of longer weapons like the tapado may be a reflection of their use as staffs and poles in everyday life:

    "Longer impact weapons include the bangaw, a straight staff of rattan running approximately forty-four inches. Specifically, however, the staff is measured by the distance from the ground to the individual practioner's sternum. The bangkaw is generally held by both hands at one end, and wielded in much the same manner as the kampilan. Another two-handed impact weapon is the pingga, a traditional load-carrying pole of the magpuputo (rice cake venders), magtataho (bean curd venders), and the maglalako ng kulambo't kumot (mosquito net and blanket venders). Pingga are three to four foot lengths of flattened bamboo used for transporting various goods and for fighting; its techniques, too, are based on those of the kampilan."
    (Mark Wiley, Filipino Martial Culture, p. 125).

    Mat Marinas of Pananandata teaches a pingga style that he learned from his granduncle.

    Best Wishes,

    Steve Lamade
     
  19. Dave Fulton

    Dave Fulton Guest

    Hello,

    It seems there are several issues in this thread, so I'll attempt to address them separately.

    The Dog Brother's & their Video:

    I have personally met and trained/sparred with Eric "Top Dog" Knaus and can tell you that what Eric does out there is not about ego. Eric has the ability to quickly assess his opponent's skill level and has enough confidence in his own ability that he will play at whatever intensity his opponent chooses to take it to. He will play just enough above his opponent so that he is in control of the match and not getting hurt, while giving his opponent some play time. That is assuming, of course, that his opponent maintains the spirit of intense, but friendly training.

    It has been quite a while since I watched the tape but, as I recall, the focus of the tape was fighting a weapon of superior length by getting inside the weapon's range. In the spirit of effectively teaching while keeping run-time and production costs down, it seems quite reasonable to me to show only Eric's "successes" at closing against the longer weapon. Personally, I don't need to be shown the "wrong" way to do something. I am perfectly capable of finding the "wrong" way all by myself while trying to learn the "right" way. And anyone with a firm grip on reality can look at what Eric is doing and see what the ramifications of failure could be.

    Tapado/Ananangkil:

    Yes, it is an impressive weapon that raises the "pucker factor" as your opponent contemplates closing the gap. My understanding is that although the standard length is 48" to 50", the actual size (as with all weapons - traditionally) is personalized based upon the player's size, strength and personal preferences. Initially, my teacher taught me just two strikes and then instructed me to extrapolate and experiment with the weapon within the context of our system. I have been expanding upon those two strikes and have come up with 16 individual strikes. As has already been said, footwork and body mechanics are the keys to maintaining the correct range and generating fast, powerful strikes. Also, as has already been said, the Tapado/Ananangkil is easily countered if the T/A player allows his opponent to close, although I believe there are more corto applications than most people credit to the weapon. However, I need more time to test my theories in the "laboratory", i.e. in full-contact sparring. Then, I will want to develop a systematized way to teach T/A. I am also experimenting with 2 T/A of different weights and find that a lighter stick does increase the maneuverability of the weapon, though you do sacrifice some of the raw power, which is a key aspect of the weapon. I am still undecided as to whether or not the trade off is desirable ... again, I need more time in the "laboratory". My teacher says that this is my "exploration". A good friend of mine, who is a long time friend/student of GM Lazo, took a look at what I was doing and remarked that it reminded him of GM Lazo's Kabaroan Arnis.

    To Steve Lamade:

    Did you guys ever finish that Ananangkil tape? If so, I'm still interested in a copy.

    Respectfully,

    Dave Fulton

    Full Contact Martial Arts Association
    "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
     
  20. John J

    John J Green Belt

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    >”Each combines both offense and defense in one motion. Both blocks and attacks are executed simultaneously in one count."

    I have some short footage of 2 Tapado players demonstrating the art in Luneta Park (Philippines). I believe they are under Romeo Mamar. The concepts as conveyed by these gentlemen suggest that both offensive & defensive techniques are interchangeable.

    An example was when both players executed downward diagonal strikes. However, one of them used footwork to flank his opponent clearing himself from the line of attack and intercepting the oncoming strike which represents a counterstrike to the opponents weapon hand or arm.

    >”Most of the time, the bouncing motion of the stick off the ground was used to help chamber the stick back on the shoulder.”

    From what was explained in this same clip, the “bouncing motion” would be used to generate additional power in a follow up thrust because it was done with one hand only. Depending on your position, be it inside or outside the attack, one hand was released as you jutted forward with the thrust. Another reason was also to free a “live hand” for closer range use.

    John G. Jacobo
    BAKBAKAN International
     

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