Take down not used in UFC

[lklawson]

When did this come about?

2009 or so.

And why? My assumption is for more flashy throws for the spectators, but im hoping im wrong.

They said it's keep it more true to the spirit of Judo or variations of the statement. But most speculated at the time that it was because too many wrestlers were snagging a single/double and embarrassing high level Judoka. Made a really big splash at the time.

Here's one guys dissection, with the benefit of hindsight to help out. The reader's digest is that he thinks it makes better matches with more first attack success as opposed to counter-attack success, and helps prevent stalling to run the other guy up on errors.

Why Are There No Leg Grabs in Judo and Why They Aren't Coming Back!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Yokozuna514]

Not if the guy is set to wrestle. If the guy is recovering from a kick or overextended punch taking a leg and toppling the top over works fairly often. I see variations of this in sparring sometimes, although it's not something I do.

This is one of my favor take down. You just don't see it ever used in UFC, MMA, BJJ, Judo, and wrestling. Why? Your thought?

Your post seemingly answers the question the OP posed. You rarely see it in the UFC, MMA, BJJ, Judo and Wrestling because most of those guys are set to wrestle (ie: practice take down defence). Sure it could work if your opponent is off balance but there are also many other ways for you to take him down in that instance. Grabbing the knee and pushing him backwards may not be at the top of the list.

 

[punisher73]

Different technique. That one is conceptually closer to a cutback single.

I love how the fighters portrayed are looking away from what they are doing as if to make sure the artist is getting their good side. “Who cares if it shows the technique correctly. I need to make sure future generations know how handsome I am.”

TBH I just picked one of the takedown pictures to post. There are alot of others that pretty much correlate to the major takedowns in wrestling.

 

[wab25]

Watching the first video, I'm wondering what the guy doing the takedown has planned to deal with a right knee or a right uppercut.

The first thing he does is take the balance of the other guy and break his structure. Once your balance is taken and your structure broken, there will be no power on either of those strikes. They will be annoying sure... but they won't stop it or knock the the guy out.

Yes, it is possible to time it perfectly and nail him with those or other techniques. But, if you can time it that well, you could also hit him with a 540 degree tornado kick as well, the timing would be a bit sooner though. The issue is that he deals with both the tornado kick and the upper cut / knee the same. He uses his timing and movement to setup his entry, as he enters he takes your balance.

Its the same as seeing a karate guy throw a head kick and saying: yeah but how is he going to stop the other guy from sweeping the support foot. The answer is almost the same. Use movement and timing to establish the proper distance and opening. The mechanics are different, but the idea is the same.

Now add feints... feint the knee tap, as they go for the upper cut, nail them with the straight right. The move is good... its all how you use it that matters.

 

[skribs]

The first thing he does is take the balance of the other guy and break his structure. Once your balance is taken and your structure broken, there will be no power on either of those strikes. They will be annoying sure... but they won't stop it or knock the the guy out.

Yes, it is possible to time it perfectly and nail him with those or other techniques. But, if you can time it that well, you could also hit him with a 540 degree tornado kick as well, the timing would be a bit sooner though. The issue is that he deals with both the tornado kick and the upper cut / knee the same. He uses his timing and movement to setup his entry, as he enters he takes your balance.

Its the same as seeing a karate guy throw a head kick and saying: yeah but how is he going to stop the other guy from sweeping the support foot. The answer is almost the same. Use movement and timing to establish the proper distance and opening. The mechanics are different, but the idea is the same.

Now add feints... feint the knee tap, as they go for the upper cut, nail them with the straight right. The move is good... its all how you use it that matters.

Incorrect. The first thing he does is lean in. The second thing he does is take the balance of the other guy. While he's leaning in, that knee or uppercut is a very viable option.

 

[wab25]

Incorrect. The first thing he does is lean in. The second thing he does is take the balance of the other guy. While he's leaning in, that knee or uppercut is a very viable option.

Incorrect. The first thing he does is enter a match where striking is not allowed. No need to worry about those.

The first contact he makes is both the knee and the shoulder. (I believe he is trying to make them simultaneously) The purpose of each is to break the balance and structure... which he does.

Yes, he was in a wrestling stance prior to that. (leaning forward) First, this was a grappling match, so no need to worry about the punch or knee. Kind of like TKD people don't worry about guard passes when entering into a TKD match. Had it been an MMA match, he could have done the same thing to entice the punch or knee, slip either one, then enter exactly as shown.

As I said before, its about how you use it, that is how you set it up, how you achieve the right distance. The type of match you are in will make differences to how you set up any technique. You set up a double leg take down in a wrestling match differently than you do in an MMA match. Much of it is the same, but a few alterations need to be made. But again, it comes down to timing, distance, movement, set up, balance and structure.

 

[skribs]

Incorrect. The first thing he does is enter a match where striking is not allowed. No need to worry about those.

The first contact he makes is both the knee and the shoulder. (I believe he is trying to make them simultaneously) The purpose of each is to break the balance and structure... which he does.

Yes, he was in a wrestling stance prior to that. (leaning forward) First, this was a grappling match, so no need to worry about the punch or knee. Kind of like TKD people don't worry about guard passes when entering into a TKD match. Had it been an MMA match, he could have done the same thing to entice the punch or knee, slip either one, then enter exactly as shown.

As I said before, its about how you use it, that is how you set it up, how you achieve the right distance. The type of match you are in will make differences to how you set up any technique. You set up a double leg take down in a wrestling match differently than you do in an MMA match. Much of it is the same, but a few alterations need to be made. But again, it comes down to timing, distance, movement, set up, balance and structure.

Then we probably know why we don't see that particular technique in MMA.

 

[wab25]

Then we probably know why we don't see that particular technique in MMA.

You must not watch enough MMA. I see it used in MMA. See the video Tony posted on page 1 in this thread. Start at 6:21 to see a few examples of this technique being used in MMA. Start at the beginning to see how he sets it up using the crouch and lean. Surprisingly, the technique looks very similar to the versions posted in the OP. (except that the guy downing it, lands on the other guy)

 

[drop bear]

Incorrect. The first thing he does is lean in. The second thing he does is take the balance of the other guy. While he's leaning in, that knee or uppercut is a very viable option.

You time your entry so they miss.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Watching the first video, I'm wondering what the guy doing the takedown has planned to deal with a right knee or a right uppercut.

That clip only shows if you

- push on your opponent's upper body, and
- pull his leading leg,

he will fall. How to move in and set up is not shown in that clip.

 

[Martial D]

Your post seemingly answers the question the OP posed. You rarely see it in the UFC, MMA, BJJ, Judo and Wrestling because most of those guys are set to wrestle (ie: practice take down defence). Sure it could work if your opponent is off balance but there are also many other ways for you to take him down in that instance. Grabbing the knee and pushing him backwards may not be at the top of the list.

But that's not what I meant by 'set to wrestle'. I meant weight low, arms low. Quite often in mma guys set into striking mode..upright and light footed. Sure if they are any good they will have a sprawl and some grappling too, but that doesn't mean they counter you every time.

The reason you don't see this a lot in mma is..because it happens all the time and you don't notice I guess.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is one of my favor take down. You just don't see it ever used in UFC, MMA, BJJ, Judo, and wrestling. Why? Your thought?

It's in MMA. Punches and kicks changes the approach to grappling so it's not going to look like it does in the videos simply because it's being done against a punching and kicking opponent.
Entry and Exit are going to change. Things are going to be added and most likely people will miss the technique unless they slow down.

It's similar to the Form to Application video where the form looks like one thing and the application doesn't strictly follow the form. In your first video, you show an example of a form. But in application it's not going to ride out like that. Other things will happen prior to the execution of the technique. The form is still there in the application, but it's not as clean cut. Fighting is fluid and as of such, you aren't going to have uniformed takedown that looks the same all the time, even though you are doing the same technique. There will be variances, but not so much that you can't spot it. You just have to know where to look and what you are looking for and not what you expect to see.

Man, I know the point was the to show the knee tap, but damn that footwork and evasion tactics are a thing of beauty.

Footwork is everything without, nothing else will flow


.

 

[Hanzou]

2009 or so.

They said it's keep it more true to the spirit of Judo or variations of the statement. But most speculated at the time that it was because too many wrestlers were snagging a single/double and embarrassing high level Judoka. Made a really big splash at the time.

Here's one guys dissection, with the benefit of hindsight to help out. The reader's digest is that he thinks it makes better matches with more first attack success as opposed to counter-attack success, and helps prevent stalling to run the other guy up on errors.

Why Are There No Leg Grabs in Judo and Why They Aren't Coming Back!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Wasn't that rule put in place (along with the rule barring the DLT) because a Mongolian Judoka was mauling the competition via leg attacks?

In either case, such rules are only going to hurt Judo in the long run.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How to move in and set up is not shown in that clip.

This is common in TMAs. Show the technique but never show or even talk about the ways someone can set it up. If you want to find out the limits of someone's application knowledge simply ask them how to set it up.

 

[punisher73]

Wasn't that rule put in place (along with the rule barring the DLT) because a Mongolian Judoka was mauling the competition via leg attacks?

In either case, such rules are only going to hurt Judo in the long run.

If I remember an article I read along time ago, the "wrestling style" takedowns were removed because many wrestlers were entering Judo competitions and pretty much win it on those alone with no formal Judo training. Same reason why certain grips have been banned in Judo, the Russians started winning a lot of big competitions with them. Judo rules are many times set up to give an advantage to the Japanese making the rules.

Whether or not that is all factual, that is what was stated.

 

[Hanzou]

If I remember an article I read along time ago, the "wrestling style" takedowns were removed because many wrestlers were entering Judo competitions and pretty much win it on those alone with no formal Judo training. Same reason why certain grips have been banned in Judo, the Russians started winning a lot of big competitions with them. Judo rules are many times set up to give an advantage to the Japanese making the rules.

Whether or not that is all factual, that is what was stated.

Yeah, I heard something similar. Interestingly, IJF apologists are now saying that it was done because Judo was looking too "boring" and these new rules were added to make it more interesting to watch.

I know people are hoping that Freestyle Judo will "save" the sport, but honestly a lot of FSJ guys are simply heading to Bjj. I welcome them and their eventual no-gi tachi-waza skills with open arms.

 

[Yokozuna514]

But that's not what I meant by 'set to wrestle'. I meant weight low, arms low. Quite often in mma guys set into striking mode..upright and light footed. Sure if they are any good they will have a sprawl and some grappling too, but that doesn't mean they counter you every time.

The reason you don't see this a lot in mma is..because it happens all the time and you don't notice I guess.

Unfortunately, there are no statistics we can look at to check the frequency that this take down is used. You may feel like it happens all the time but I don't. I certainly do not watch every MMA match but if YOU say it happens all the time and I just don't notice it, how can I dispute that .

 

[lklawson]

Yeah, I heard something similar. Interestingly, IJF apologists are now saying that it was done because Judo was looking too "boring" and these new rules were added to make it more interesting to watch.

And this is exactly what happened back then. Lots of speculation about the "real reason" behind it and contrasting it against the official statement which seems questionable to a lot of people.

So, speculation with no solid answer.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I attended a seminar with Neil Adams a while back and if I recall correctly he indicated that the Judo rule changes were part of an effort to visually distinguish Judo from Wrestling at a time when the Olympic committee was considering dropping one or both sports.

 

[Martial D]

Unfortunately, there are no statistics we can look at to check the frequency that this take down is used. You may feel like it happens all the time but I don't. I certainly do not watch every MMA match but if YOU say it happens all the time and I just don't notice it, how can I dispute that .

Watch? I train at an MMA gym 3 times a week. I don't need to turn on a TV to see what works in sparring/competition.

As it turns out though you see it a lot if you just watch it too.

As you do neither of these things I can't help but wonder why you are even arguing.