Tai Chi vs. MMA from Daoist Gate - Blog Post

[Martial D]

So you have two groups of 5 martial arts students, all you know is that one is a group taken from a boxing gym and one is a group taken from a kung fu school. They are going to do some stand up fighting under san shou rules. Best of five gives the group the win. Which group would you bet on to win?

The boxers, but only because under San Shou rules wearing pants is illegal. Who does Kung Fu in shorts?

Well that and the ban on knee strikes joint manipulation and strikes to the back of the head.

This is of course assuming all things are equal and the Kung Fu school trains for combat and not gymnastics.

 

[Buka]

I like Tai-chi a lot. Liked it from the very first time I did it, long ago. Wish I had done it every day, instead of just here and there.

Never really considered the fighting aspects to it while I was practicing it, didn't really care, I just love the way it feels, always have. But I tell you what, it helped me with pushing. Pushes have always been part of my repertoire. I love to push.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I like Tai-chi a lot. Liked it from the very first time I did it, long ago. Wish I had done it every day, instead of just here and there.

Never really considered the fighting aspects to it while I was practicing it, didn't really care, I just love the way it feels, always have. But I tell you what, it helped me with pushing. Pushes have always been part of my repertoire. I love to push.

Good root, good upper and lower unification..... relax and...push...

 

[Buka]

Good root, good upper and lower unification..... relax and...push...

Yeah, maybe, not really sure how to explain it. Kind of a slightly upward force, at least it feels that way to me, not sure.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, maybe, not really sure how to explain it. Kind of a slightly upward force, at least it feels that way to me, not sure.

People naturally push bum going backwards and elbows flared. Which makes a lot of your weight go backwards.

So you lock your hips under and use your base

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

When I say, "I think most people who train boxing, BJJ, wrestling, judo, Muay Thai, MMA, or any other sport oriented art can fight," I have in mind someone who is free from any mental or physical impairments that would prevent them from engaging fully in the training, and who trains regularly, which in my opinion is three or more times each week in a school under a qualified instructor. This even applies to 'hobbyists.' I really didn't think this needed to be spelled out.

All of the other disclaimers I included in my last post still apply. A BJJ guy who can't strike and focuses on the ground will have gaps which can be a problem outside of the BJJ school.

Once again, the point is that a person who applies what they learn is developing actual skills which will be there under pressure.

I've said in other threads many times that the solution to overcoming the limitations of pressure and competition isn't to eliminate competition. if you want to address a shortcoming in the training, you expand the competition so that it tests the right things. A guy who trains in BJJ only and doesn't compete will progress slower than a guy who trains in BJJ and competes in an IBJJF rule set. That guy would be more well rounded if he competes in IBJJF and Sub only along with other rule sets. And THAT guy would be more well rounded if he trains in striking arts and competes in those rule sets. And THAT guy would be more well rounded if he expands his competition to include MMA.

Steve, plenty of people free of physical or mental impairments couldn't fight to save their lives regardless of where or what they trained. Some people just do not have it! They don't have the mental or physical characteristics often necessary in a fight. In many an mma gym I have been in there have been some posers and hangers on. This is especially true here in Vegas but it is not the only place where this occurs. (I have encountered it else where) In BJJ there are less and in Muay Thai there are even less. (repercussions are worse)

Now, you and I agree on many, many levels that competition is good. In my system we spar empty handed, with weapons, roll empty handed and incorporate weapons. However, sparring is just one methodology to utilize. Scenario based training is used repeatedly and more often by law enforcement and every military that I know of. When I went through the academy almost thirty years ago we did a lot of scenario based training and guess what just a little bit of competitive boxing. This hasn't really changed either based on talking with the LEO trainers that I personally know. In many cases the sporting methodology will get people hurt as in the BJJ guy who only trains BJJ and has a weak striking game and has no clue about weapons or how to deal with the realities of a street fight. Same for the MMA guy or the Muay Thai guy. Remember world class Muay Thai gym owner Fairtex chasing after someone on foot who hit his vehicle and being shot because of it. Over property? Should have just reported it to the police and insurance but he did not understand the realities of violence. What I have always said and advocated is having overall balance in your martial training. Weapons/Tools, Kicking, Hand Strikes, Trapping and Joint Manipulation and Grappling with a heavy emphasis on Awareness, Avoidance, De-escalation techniques and Legal Knowledge to understand what you can and cannot do in regards to legally protecting oneself. ( Weapons training would include a strong firearms background) The above would also include Scenario Based Training, Sparring, Rolling with and without weapons/tools and more of course to achieve some sort of balance... If you have balance and sound training then you have a chance but... that is all you have nothing more a chance! In the moment it is on you...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah, maybe, not really sure how to explain it. Kind of a slightly upward force, at least it feels that way to me, not sure.

You got it

 

[Buka]

People naturally push bum going backwards and elbows flared. Which makes a lot of your weight go backwards.

So you lock your hips under and use your base

Haven't flared my elbows since I was in short pants. And the only way my bum is going backwards is to throw you. Not YOU, personally, just saying.

 

[Steve]

Steve, plenty of people free of physical or mental impairments couldn't fight to save their lives regardless of where or what they trained. Some people just do not have it! They don't have the mental or physical characteristics often necessary in a fight. In many an mma gym I have been in there have been some posers and hangers on. This is especially true here in Vegas but it is not the only place where this occurs. (I have encountered it else where) In BJJ there are less and in Muay Thai there are even less. (repercussions are worse)

for petes sake Brian. Come on. Posers and hangers on... that's what you're talking about now? Please just stop.

Now, you and I agree on many, many levels that competition is good. In my system we spar empty handed, with weapons, roll empty handed and incorporate weapons. However, sparring is just one methodology to utilize. Scenario based training is used repeatedly and more often by law enforcement and every military that I know of. When I went through the academy almost thirty years ago we did a lot of scenario based training and guess what just a little bit of competitive boxing. This hasn't really changed either based on talking with the LEO trainers that I personally know. In many cases the sporting methodology will get people hurt as in the BJJ guy who only trains BJJ and has a weak striking game and has no clue about weapons or how to deal with the realities of a street fight. Same for the MMA guy or the Muay Thai guy. Remember world class Muay Thai gym owner Fairtex chasing after someone on foot who hit his vehicle and being shot because of it. Over property? Should have just reported it to the police and insurance but he did not understand the realities of violence. What I have always said and advocated is having overall balance in your martial training. Weapons/Tools, Kicking, Hand Strikes, Trapping and Joint Manipulation and Grappling with a heavy emphasis on Awareness, Avoidance, De-escalation techniques and Legal Knowledge to understand what you can and cannot do in regards to legally protecting oneself. ( Weapons training would include a strong firearms background) The above would also include Scenario Based Training, Sparring, Rolling with and without weapons/tools and more of course to achieve some sort of balance... If you have balance and sound training then you have a chance but... that is all you have nothing more a chance! In the moment it is on you...

Who's talking about sparring? For love sake, Brian. Come on. and being a cop is applying technique in context, although it's a means of application that is not available to anyone who isn't a cop. You get that. Right? Or are you suggesting that the best way to learn real world defense is to be a cop?

I also went out of my way to acknowledge that every style has weaknesses. You read that... right?

Brian, it really irritates me when you use my name, suggesting you are responding to something I said, but say things that make me wonder if you read my words at all. Do you do this in purpose?

 

[drop bear]

Steve, plenty of people free of physical or mental impairments couldn't fight to save their lives regardless of where or what they trained. Some people just do not have it! They don't have the mental or physical characteristics often necessary in a fight. In many an mma gym I have been in there have been some posers and hangers on. This is especially true here in Vegas but it is not the only place where this occurs. (I have encountered it else where) In BJJ there are less and in Muay Thai there are even less. (repercussions are worse)

Now, you and I agree on many, many levels that competition is good. In my system we spar empty handed, with weapons, roll empty handed and incorporate weapons. However, sparring is just one methodology to utilize. Scenario based training is used repeatedly and more often by law enforcement and every military that I know of. When I went through the academy almost thirty years ago we did a lot of scenario based training and guess what just a little bit of competitive boxing. This hasn't really changed either based on talking with the LEO trainers that I personally know. In many cases the sporting methodology will get people hurt as in the BJJ guy who only trains BJJ and has a weak striking game and has no clue about weapons or how to deal with the realities of a street fight. Same for the MMA guy or the Muay Thai guy. Remember world class Muay Thai gym owner Fairtex chasing after someone on foot who hit his vehicle and being shot because of it. Over property? Should have just reported it to the police and insurance but he did not understand the realities of violence. What I have always said and advocated is having overall balance in your martial training. Weapons/Tools, Kicking, Hand Strikes, Trapping and Joint Manipulation and Grappling with a heavy emphasis on Awareness, Avoidance, De-escalation techniques and Legal Knowledge to understand what you can and cannot do in regards to legally protecting oneself. ( Weapons training would include a strong firearms background) The above would also include Scenario Based Training, Sparring, Rolling with and without weapons/tools and more of course to achieve some sort of balance... If you have balance and sound training then you have a chance but... that is all you have nothing more a chance! In the moment it is on you...

A few interesting logic leaps there.

Because that is the way police and military have always done it isnt really an endorsement. We just dont know how effective that training really is.

The martial artist that go shot is kind of a strange one as well. If that martial artists training is suspect because he got shot. I imagine police get shot. So their training is suspect? Or does that argument suddenly change?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Actually Drop Bear the military has a very good idea of what has worked well for them in the past.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

For Pete's sake Steve, what I articulated was that LEO's and our Military have utilized scenario based training as one methodology of their training! They have a broad based approach to their training. This is good and effective. Yes, they also use competition and that is good as well. Yet, they do not rely on only one methodology. The methodology of competition. This seems to be the methodology that several posters here believe is the end all be all. While I am totally a believer of competition I have also been around long enough to realize that it is not the only way. I am just giving a counter point to that being the only methodology. There are other methods that also work!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You, I and Drop Bear agree on most points. Where we disagree is when you guys push that their is only one methodology. Which if you are not self aware comes through repeatedly in your posts and other MartialTalk members notice it.

 

[Steve]

For Pete's sake Steve, what I articulated was that LEO's and our Military have utilized scenario based training as one methodology of their training! They have a broad based approach to their training. This is good and effective. Yes, they also use competition and that is good as well. Yet, they do not rely on only one methodology. The methodology of competition. This seems to be the methodology that several posters here believe is the end all be all. While I am totally a believer of competition I have also been around long enough to realize that it is not the only way. I am just giving a counter point to that being the only methodology. There are other methods that also work!

Cops apply what they learn on the job. Soldiers apply what they learn in combat. An accountant will apply what he or she learns... where?

Please read this carefully, and by all means ask questions if you don't get it, because frankly, I'm tired of you creating strawman arguments and putting my name on them. It's exasperating.

Scenario based training is great. The operative word is "training." It's training. It's like sparring, kata and everything else. If you think I'm not completely supportive of it, you are wrong. But it's training. And like ALL training, it will only get you to the cusp of application. In order to develop reliable expertise, you have to have some outlet for application.

If you train to be a cop, and are actually a cop, great. That works. If you train to be a soldier and go out and actually soldier, great. That also works. But if you're a teacher and you train to be a cop, and then go out and work in an elementary school, there is a disconnect.

Competition is a safe (relatively speaking), reliable and accessible form of application. Competition is application. It is not training. It is a way to apply training in a context in order to develop skill.

Now, I understand that this is where you say, "But Steve. Competition isn't "real life self defense." There are rules and bad guys don't play by the rules." I get it. And you're right. However, being a cop also has rules, and being a cop is also not "real life self defense." Because the experience a cop has is nothing like how most people go through their lives. Being a soldier also has rules, and is not "real life self defense."

I understand that any form of competition has rules, and truly, that's okay.

I really think that you and others fundamentally misunderstand my points. I am not suggesting that competition is better training than anything else. I'm suggesting that competition is not training at all. It is the product of training... the end result. And you NEED an end result in order to develop real skill. Every training has an end result (which I have referred to as application). The problem is, some people don't know what that end result is. They think it's 'self defense' when in reality, it's 'kata' or something else.

In cop training, it's working professionally as a cop. In soldier training, it's combat. In civilian self defense training, it's... what? more training? Training is the means to the end.

 

[Steve]

You, I and Drop Bear agree on most points. Where we disagree is when you guys push that their is only one methodology. Which if you are not self aware comes through repeatedly in your posts and other MartialTalk members notice it.

Here's something I hope you'll consider. Competition is not training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve, we go round and round on this and you also go round and round on this with other posters. If you look at your second to last post I would advise you to look at your posting style and try to figure out why you get so much push back. Personally, if you feel like you are not communicating effectively it may be that you are not. Or you have alienated posters based on past posting style. My advice would be to look for inwards rather than outwards.

One item of personal note: when you say something like ask questions if you don't get it or for pete's sake which I used back at you after you used it at me. (to see if you would get it) You have to understand that people will totally write off what you continue to say. It is a very ineffective communication tool! It is something that you have mentioned you don't like in regards to another poster.

Now, if we look at the overall quantity of your post you and I agree on almost everything. Where we disagree is that a system that does not have competition cannot be effective. This was pushed early on in Renzo Gracie's first book and he is wrong as is anyone else who pushes this. Why? Because, humans have throughout time risen to the occasion and performed feats without having had competition as their only mainstay. This in no way invalidates competition because like you I believe in it as well to have balance in training. Yet, people can effectively defend themselves without competition. Soldiers can effectively perform in combat without competition. LEO's can effectively perform their duties without regular competition. Though in my opinion it would be good if they had some competition as a regular part of their advancing their skills. There are other training methodologies that work and can be utilized.

 

[Steve]

Steve, we go round and round on this and you also go round and round on this with other posters. If you look at your second to last post I would advise you to look at your posting style and try to figure out why you get so much push back. Personally, if you feel like you are not communicating effectively it may be that you are not. Or you have alienated posters based on past posting style. My advice would be to look for inwards rather than outwards.

One item of personal note: when you say something like ask questions if you don't get it or for pete's sake which I used back at you after you used it at me. (to see if you would get it) You have to understand that people will totally write off what you continue to say. It is a very ineffective communication tool! It is something that you have mentioned you don't like in regards to another poster.

Now, if we look at the overall quantity of your post you and I agree on almost everything. Where we disagree is that a system that does not have competition cannot be effective. This was pushed early on in Renzo Gracie's first book and he is wrong as is anyone else who pushes this. Why? Because, humans have throughout time risen to the occasion and performed feats without having had competition as their only mainstay. This in no way invalidates competition because like you I believe in it as well to have balance in training. Yet, people can effectively defend themselves without competition. Soldiers can effectively perform in combat without competition. LEO's can effectively perform their duties without regular competition. Though in my opinion it would be good if they had some competition as a regular part of their advancing their skills. There are other training methodologies that work and can be utilized.

If MT administration has concerns about my posting style, a PM would be appreciated.

Whether you appreciate my posting style or not, it's not okay to put words in my mouth. I have no problems being accountable for my own words, but I can't accept responsibility for what you invent in your noggin, but ascribe to me. You say you and I agree. I have no way to know that based on what you actually write.

Do you understand what I mean when I say that competition is not training? If you don't, maybe that's a good place to start. Think about it like this. A competitor is a role, like cop. Competing is the application of training, like policing. Scenario based training, kata/bunkai, drills, sparring, road work... that's training. Those are all ways to prepare for application, which can be policing or competing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You see Steve, look at your post above. It is argumentative and or condescending. I am not sure if you realize you do this. it makes it hard to want to even read your post and have a conversation with you.

In regards to competition/training. They are not the same. They are different. Yet they can be found together working in concert regularly. Where you are make a mistake is that Scenario Based Training can have a elements of competition in it. It doesn't have to be only for adrenalizing a partner. A scenario can start off as a role playing situation and quickly advance to full on competition to dominate the other individual in the scenario. Happens all the time. Especially when someone gets really adrenalized and gets after it. It can be very competitive then. Kata training ie. the two person kind can also become very competitive as well depending on the level of the practitioner's. Two person kata can be very scary when done right. Adrenaline can flow and the partner can actually be trying to take your head off even if you are working on very structured skill sets. Things are not so black and white there are shades of grey here and that is what I believe you miss.

Like I said you and I agree on almost everything but... you seem to be locked into there is only one way to do this and that is just not correct.

 

[Buka]

Brian and Steve, you two don't care much for each other's opinions and writing styles. (I can tell these things, it's a gift, what can I say)

I think you both need to do some two man Tai-chi together or something. Or just have a rock fight. My particular problem is I've always liked reading both of your thoughts. Still do, just makes it more difficult with the arguing. Especially when you both seem to agree on so much.

See, now I'm so upset I'm going to go eat the rest of that lemon tart with another cup of Kona coffee. And I'm putting whipped cream on it. And this is breakfast. Bastahs!

 

[Steve]

Brian, can you please show me the post where I said that scenario based training is not quality training? Because I am very sure I can find you several posts in several threads where I have said just the opposite.

If you don't mind, I'll try to stick to the substance and would appreciate it if you would do the same. And once again, if you or any other MT administrative staff have concerns about my posting style, the polite thing to do is address it in private. PM is the right way to do this.

Scenario based training, like sparring, drills, and every other way to train, has a role. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Sparring has elements of competition in it, as well, and that's a part of why it's so helpful for people who are preparing to compete.

All training does get to some kind of application. The problem is when you think it's something that it is not. For example, if you think you're training for "self defense" but are actually training to be really good at sparring, you've got problems. If you think you're training to be a cop, but are actually training for competition, you have problems. This is what I think you are getting at. A cop may compete, and it may be helpful to a cop, but competition isn't going to be critical to a cop, because he or she has a practical venue for applying technique in context, which is the profession of being a cop. A marine may or may not compete. It might be helpful for a marine to participate in a competitive martial art, but not critical, because marines are training for combat. And if they serve in a combat arena, they will be applying what they've learned on the job.

Once again, a teacher or an accountant has no means for applying what they're learning. They aren't going to go out and work nights as a narcotics detective or an infantryman. They can, however, prepare for competition. That's a reasonable end goal.

If you can find a way to avoid wagging your finger at me for being condescending and spend some time addressing what I'm actually writing, I would appreciate it. I also realize that this is somewhat off topic, so if it belongs in another thread, that's fine too.