tai chi ground fighting???
- Thread starter taitsechien
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bostonbomber
Orange Belt
In order for a ground fighter to do his thing, he's got to get you on the ground first. I think it would be difficult for anyone to take a skilled Tai Chi player to the ground, especially if you recognize your opponent is a ground fighter and understand what he is trying to do. If you do end up on the ground, the Tai Chi principles you use on your feet also apply on the ground. You can try cross-training in BJJ, but if you primarily do Tai Chi, how are you going to stack up against someone that does ground fighting exclusively?
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
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taichi takes place within the body. therefore, the outside form does not matter as much as most would believe. standing or lying or kneeling. all of life, all movements and all phenomena are a type of taichi.
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Laoshi77
Orange Belt
I do genuinely believe this to be true, Taijiquan fundamentally is designed on developing great balance and a good teacher should have their students trying to unbalance each other. I also think that Taijiquan has the perfect answers for the attacks of the grappler and I have tried this repeatedly with friends, it works because it is so subtle in that even the slightest movement is the answer to the grappler's attacks. What is more natural than the simplest movement of shifting your weight or even 'repulse monkey'?
BJJ and grappling arts are designed to ground an opponent which is not as easy as it sounds when fighting a decent Taijiquan (or internal) martial artist. Martial artists with the mindset of the grappler only think it is easy due to what the medium is telling you!
Never mind Taiji. It's actually not so easy to ground an opponent very skilled in striking arts either.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Laoshi77
Orange Belt
it's designed for the fighter who can adapt to the rules. often a striker with minimal ground skills can stall out for a stand up.
jf
Laoshi77
Orange Belt
Rules of course are important in that context, but not so much in the scenario of what this thread is reasoning. However, on the other hand we are gradually seeing a shift from there being too much focus on groundwork.
What do you mean by: "often a striker with minimal ground skills can stall out for a stand up."? Is it that they can hold on and wait for the ref to call them to stand?
Being on the wrong side of a mount is naturally not a good place for anyone, but the rules do inhibit natural and very painful responses (techniques), wouldn't you agree?
Does anyone agree that 'Fa Jing' will help one escape from most locks and holds?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
It depends on the lock and the skill of the person applying the lock.
You mean you don't think it is easy to grab a guy attacking with Tong Bei or coming at you with one of those windmill style white crane or Chungquan attacks
I don't know about grabbing windmill attacks. For one, I'm not under the illusion that they're actually giants that I have to defeat.
Actually, I find the whole praying mantis hook hands quite useful for getting in the way of the opponent's arm movements which makes it more easier to set up grappling against a good striker. It's even better with the whole LHBF vertical circular blocking.
I find there are two factors that makes a hold/lock much harder for an opponent to pull off. At least for arm and hand locks.
First is elbows down. Second is to try and avoid being grabbed at the wrist.
I personally don't think it's a good idea to fa jing out of locks and holds. An opponent good at listening will be able to use that fa jing moment and redirect that force into making your arm bend unnaturally and making the lock easier. Especially if they've got the wrist and elbow covered.
trends in mma tend to be cyclical. when coleman came on the scene, bjj was dead & ground & pound was king. then maurice smith figured out some take down defense & a little guard, & strikers were back in the game. brazilain top team picked up some takedown skills & brought back bjj. it all goes round & round.
yup, it can be really hard to submit a sweaty opponent who is just focused on surviving. lot's of guys are getting their black belts in ref-stan-do.
i disagree. i don't know what specific techniques you are referring to, but usually when people mention something like this, they are talking about groin & eye attacks. people often don't realize that there is no magical formula that prevents grapplers from using these techniques as well. if the man on top mount is using a low-mount, his groin is protected & he has equal access to his opponent's eyes. if he is using high-mount, his eyes are out of range while he can reach the bottom man's eyes. any attack on the top man's groin by the bottom man leaves his face open, plus puts his arms in position for a submission. so-called dirty fighting techniques are useful, but they are not usually a short cut for defeating superior position.
jf
Laoshi77
Orange Belt
That's funny!
True to an extent but I guess when you are in the sports environment most martial artists are hindered due to the rules categorising certain techniques as illegal. Of course in the street the grappler can use these techniques too which is stating the obvious.
However to get back to the nature of this thread firstly, the purpose of Taijiquan is pretty much to be evasive which results in being virtually 'not there' when an opponent grabs or tries to floor you. I'm sure that might sound odd or even mystical to some but honestly, try and grab an experienced Taijiquan practitoner and you will understand that you are trying to grab water i.e. practically impossible.
Secondly, the philosophy of 'ground and pound' is really alien to Taijiquan although nobody will be comfortable in that position. There are still many principles which can be taken into the ground scenario such as counter-balance and leverage which are both qualities that are common in both BJJ and Taijiquan.
Thirdly, as has been said it would be practically impossible to floor a good Taiji exponent as balance and elusiveness are key to being proficient in this style. I understand that might seem arrogant but I guess that's why Taijiquan is often translated as 'Ultimate Fist Style'. Remember Taijiquan features many aspects of Shuai Jiao and Qin Na so grappling is a major part of the system.
Peace.
i understand what you're saying & agree to a large extent; i've trained just a tiny bit of tai chi & have enourmous respect for it. i have also sparred with some well respected tai chi practicioners & not had trouble grounding them once i'm able to get my range. getting into that range is often the difficulty, but a well-rounded grappler will spend a lot of time learning how to get there. as usual, it really comes down to the exponent of each style.
jf
jf
Laoshi77
Orange Belt
Yes that's it precisely. One always is more comfortable in a certain range; and this fits with what you say about finding your range. I think this is key to Taijiquan in that the practitioner tries to be elusive and not necessarily attack the opponent.
Of course this is another reason why you would never see the fight between a BJJ person and Taiji person (in a sport environment) as attack is not the primary focus.
Thanks for your responses, very informative. I did read another of your comments somewhere which stated how you felt Taiji could help the grappler in learning the subtle nature of contact, or words to that effect (I can't recite what you said exactly).
