tai chi ground fighting???

[taitsechien]

does anyone know of youtube videos or otherwise that show tai chi ground fighting or any type of internal system going to the ground... not so much throws, but what to do from the ground...
thanks...

 

[Andrew Green]

does anyone know of youtube videos or otherwise that show tai chi ground fighting or any type of internal system going to the ground... not so much throws, but what to do from the ground...
thanks...

I don't think what you are looking for exists, and if it does I'd bet that it is a addition of the lats few years.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

does anyone know of youtube videos or otherwise that show tai chi ground fighting or any type of internal system going to the ground... not so much throws, but what to do from the ground...
thanks...

Yeah. IMA on the ground is called BJJ or judo. I highly suggest cross training one of them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have said more than once taiji standing up or laying down is still taiji but I have to agree with what has been posted. I do not think there is anything that is taiji ground fighting and if there is a video of it it is most likely a combination of Taiji and something like BJJ or just BJJ or something similar that someone called taiji.

 

[jarrod]

approaching this as a judo/jujitsu/sambo guy who has dabbled in tai chi, i have never come accross anything resembling tai chi specific groundfighting. that said, much of what i learned in tai chi was very useful in grappling. push hands helped my grip fighting. the emphasis on circular motion helped my guard game. focusing on staying rooted helped my throws as well as my ability to pin. the principles of good fighting are the same, only the techniques change from style to style.

jf

 

[pete]

city boys box, country boys rassle. city streets hurt when you hit 'em. not like the country fields, pastures, or dirt roads.

tai chi chuan is a city art.

 

[ggg214]

never heard that taiji has techniques or even principles on ground fighting.

and may i ask : what is BJJ?

 

[jarrod]

bjj = brazilian jiu-jitsu

 

[Kenkaku Knight]

From what I learned in CMA, in a duel/challenge match, groundfighting never developed as an aspect of these arts. When one fighter is standing while the other one is on his behind on the floor, that is already pretty humiliating. Also, during a challenge match, if your opponent is on the ground, you do not join him. You wait for him to get back up. Now, I recognize this is the 21st century, and such formalities are, for the most part, thrown out the window. But that is what I have been taught about why ground fighting pretty much does not exist in CMA.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

The only CMAs I've heard of which address ground fighting are Monkey style, Grand Earth style (Di Tang Men) and Dog style. Good luck finding instruction in any of them.

 

[jarrod]

city boys box, country boys rassle. city streets hurt when you hit 'em. not like the country fields, pastures, or dirt roads.

tai chi chuan is a city art.

after thinking a bit, i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. judo's headquarters, the kodokan, is based out of tokyo. pankration & the foundation of greco-roman wrestling developed in the greek city states. bjj evolved in rio.

city streets do hurt, but they tend to hurt more for the guy who doesn't know how to rassle.

i think the more relevent issue is the general lack of groundfighting in cma's, as pointed out by randy & kenkaku. probably an issue of formality, but i really don't know.

here's a question for those of you who know more cma history than me: how much did china's empty-hand martial arts evolve on the battlefield against armoured opponents, rather than in the cities & monastaries against unarmoured attackers? the reason i ask is because i have a theory that at least some grappling arts (jujitsu, pankration, wrestling) were first intended to be used against an opponent wearing armour. it's a lot more difficult to effectively punch or kick a fully armoured opponent, whereas throws & joint locks could still be applied. of course i could be way off base, & it may just be a cultural thing.

jf

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bajiquan, Xingyiquan are both Chinese military arts as is Sanda today. Shaolin came form a monastery. Many other arts do not come from the military or monastery and were developed for non-armored fighting, Bagua for example was not a military art although it does have roots in Taoism.

Taiji, if you believe the Chen family history, was developed in the countryside (in North China) not the city. And as to a previous statement about knocking someone down and the waiting for them to get up that is just plain fantasy, fighters trying to kill each other in old China were not that polite. CMA way of fighting uses Kicks and punches, Qinna and Shuaijiao in combination, if you are looking for something close to Jujitsu or ground fighting in CMA you need to look at Shuaijiao and much of the idea there is to throw your opponent on the ground with great force so he does not get up. As for ground fighting it is NOT the be all end all of all fighting and CMA has a whole lot of little nasty things to counter it one of those being Qinna which is sometimes defined as muscle and tendon tearing.

Back to military arts like Xingyiquan, it has a plethora of weapons that it trained so going to the ground on a Chinese battle filed is a great way to get yourself killed by a guy with a weapon or a horse or a chariot.

I am terribly sorry but I am so sick and tired of this whole NEED for ground fighting thing I am not as nice as I should be here but I ABSOLUTLY GARUNTEE you if you try and take a real live CMA person (meaning properly trained and well trained) you are not guaranteed a victory, try that on my Taiji sifu and you may be surprised at what happens. Try that on someone with a lot of qinna training and it will get you hurt. And that is only a partial list of possibilities. Try that on jut about any well trained CMA person (and there are not as many as people think) it can get you hurt badly.

I personally have nothing against ground fighting, I think it can be a good tool in the tool box but it is not the be all end all of fighting, PARTICUALRLY outside of the ring and PARTICUALLARLY on an ancient Chinese battle field.

 

[oxy]

I am terribly sorry but I am so sick and tired of this whole NEED for ground fighting thing
.
.
.
I personally have nothing against ground fighting, I think it can be a good tool in the tool box but it is not the be all end all of fighting, PARTICUALRLY outside of the ring and PARTICUALLARLY on an ancient Chinese battle field.

qft

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

qft

Just wondering what that means.

 

[mograph]

Quantum Field Theory?

... or it may be "quoted for truth", which may be another way of saying ... "word".

 

[jarrod]

like i mentioned before, i am primarily a grappler & i happen to agree with 99% of what xue sheng.

the problem is that all martial arts get shrouded in some form of ********, whether it's dodging bullets & throwing chi blasts (cma) or a 145lbs nerd who takes 3 bjj/wrestling/"cagefighting" lessons & can tap every blackbelt from any style (grappling).

fighting is fighting, & there are a lot of ways to get good at hurting another human being.

anyway, what i'm trying to get at is WHY groundfighting is largely absent from cma. asking this does not imply that i think cma are incomplete or inferior just because i personally am more comfortable grappling. i'm just theorizing about possible historical contexts that explain why china has produced little to no form of groundfighting, when it is so common in other countries.

hopefully you didn't think i was bashing,

jf

 

[Myrmidon]

Totally agree with your post, Xue Sheng...

Here's some Shuai Jiao:

 

[oxy]

Quantum Field Theory?

... or it may be "quoted for truth", which may be another way of saying ... "word".

I searched google for "qft" to make sure it meant what I thought it meant too.

 

[oxy]

i'm just theorizing about possible historical contexts that explain why china has produced little to no form of groundfighting, when it is so common in other countries.

Is it THAT common in other countries? Throughout history?

My impression is that for most cultures throughout history, in the context of martial arts and warfare, being on the ground is as good as dead (for either the attacker or the defender). Many martial arts go further to say losing your balance is as good as dead (again for either attacker or defender).

It's more like there's an overemphasis today on groundfighting where you don't get penalized for staying on the ground too long. In the battle field, if you get into a wrestle hold with your opponent for even more than a second you're pretty much open to one hit kill shots.

Ancient Chinese warfare was quite different to other countries as well.

It was centred around the general. They rode in the front with pole weapons guiding the formation and also going around stabbing and chopping up people. A Chinese saying (at least from what I remember from the Three Kingdoms story) is that a good general is worth 10,000 foot soldiers.

There's not so much use for groundfighting when a guy riding a horse will decapitate you. But it's much better that you're standing up prepared for it rather than down on the ground with your opponent even if you're doing a ground and pound.

 

[Xue Sheng]

like i mentioned before, i am primarily a grappler & i happen to agree with 99% of what xue sheng.

the problem is that all martial arts get shrouded in some form of ********, whether it's dodging bullets & throwing chi blasts (cma) or a 145lbs nerd who takes 3 bjj/wrestling/"cagefighting" lessons & can tap every blackbelt from any style (grappling).

fighting is fighting, & there are a lot of ways to get good at hurting another human being.

anyway, what i'm trying to get at is WHY groundfighting is largely absent from cma. asking this does not imply that i think cma are incomplete or inferior just because i personally am more comfortable grappling. i'm just theorizing about possible historical contexts that explain why china has produced little to no form of groundfighting, when it is so common in other countries.

hopefully you didn't think i was bashing,

jf

Not upset, just tired of the whole "Search for Ground fighting thing" thing. And the whole "Ground fighters rule" arguements. But like I said I do think it is a good tool in the tool box.

Oxy pretty much explained why it is not there. There was no need for it and if you went to the ground in the early days of Chinese warfare it was very likely you were not getting up again.

But with that said there is ground fighting in some CMA (not so much the military styles) but it is not emphasized by many of the styles that train it, it is nothing special or any more important than kicking, punching or Qinna it is just another tool. And as I said if you want ground fighting there are CMA styles that are made for that, Shuaijiao is one and although I have never seen it I am told Dog boxing or fighting or something like that is another.

If you look at Sanshou (Sanda) both sport and non-sport you will see Shuaijiao to varying degrees. Understand that many CMA styles are made to be trained and not be obvious about what the heck they are training. I referred to this in another post but in Chen style Buddha’s warrior attendant (Jin Gung Dao Dui) has about 8 different applications, all rather nasty and I doubt by looking and a Chen stylist doing that form that many could figure them all out.

I believe it was Yang Jwing Ming that said Chinese Martial arts is made up of Kicking and punching, wrestling and Qinna. And you use (If someone else knows the correct order and I am wrong here please correct me) kicking and punching to fight qinna you use qinna to fight wrestling and wrestling to fight kicking and punching... or something like that