Taekwondo on UK TV advert (commercial in American)

[dancingalone]

I understand your, and your students dismay at TKD sport rules. I sometimes feel it is a wrong approach myself. But ...

I remember when TKD and Karate had many movements that were considered to be maiming or lethal. That is not what I want in a sport. Especially since sport TKD uses full contact rather than demonstration of control. We don't allow bare knuckles or biting in boxing either.

So I guess we are stuck with some rules to prevent injury or death.

The reason why punching is de-emphasized in Olympic rules TKD sparring has nothing to do with safety. They freely let you kick full force to the head after all.

 

[ETinCYQX]

The mistake you're making is assuming that I've never done it. I'm a KKW BB, and it wasn't one of the oft-debated "gimmes" that Dan holders in other systems often get. When I joined this Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school, I made it a point NOT to talk about my prior ITF training, and when asked, I said things like "I watch a lot of MA movies...".
You're not telling me anything about WTF sparring that I don't already know. It is still an unalterable fact that the rules for WTF sparring allow the use of only a tiny fraction of what TKD has to offer. And that is sad.

I knew you were a MDK/KKW BB, I remember your grading thread. . I still would respectfully submit you're missing a few intricacies of the sport sparring game and just how much of Taekwondo is still there.

WTF sparring uses a limited number of strikes, yeah. The more important skills, like distance, timing, footwork and what I generally call "fight sense", are just as much Taekwondo as the strikes. All the kicks are applied, the only thing that's really missing is punches to the face and strikes to the more vulnerable areas like throat etc which no sport allows. The essence of Taekwondo is still there, as are the really important skills.

More to the point, sport Taekwondo athletes don't train like anyone else. They don't train like kickboxers, or boxers, or wrestlers, they train like Taekwondoin. It's still Taekwondo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I knew you were a MDK/KKW BB, I remember your grading thread. . I still would respectfully submit you're missing a few intricacies of the sport sparring game and just how much of Taekwondo is still there.

WTF sparring uses a limited number of strikes, yeah. The more important skills, like distance, timing, footwork and what I generally call "fight sense", are just as much Taekwondo as the strikes. All the kicks are applied, the only thing that's really missing is punches to the face and strikes to the more vulnerable areas like throat etc which no sport allows. The essence of Taekwondo is still there, as are the really important skills.

More to the point, sport Taekwondo athletes don't train like anyone else. They don't train like kickboxers, or boxers, or wrestlers, they train like Taekwondoin. It's still Taekwondo.

Those skills are a part of fighting under ANY ruleset, including those that allow the fighters to use more than a tiny fraction of their art. Training like Taekwondoin, to me, means using all that the art teaches and can be safely used in the fight.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Those skills are a part of fighting under ANY ruleset, including those that allow the fighters to use more than a tiny fraction of their art. Training like Taekwondoin, to me, means using all that the art teaches and can be safely used in the fight.

There's an excellent Hapkido ruleset that is just like Taekwondo, but allows leg kicks, sweeps/throws/takedowns, and ground fighting. I wish there was someone here to organize a few tournaments like that. Would that be more to your tastes? I'd let my students spar with these rules but I don't have a matted surface area yet and I don't particularly want 13 year olds doing breakfalls on tile, especially in a sparring situation where it's a little less controlled. Judo breakfalls in sparring hurt enough on a mat.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There's an excellent Hapkido ruleset that is just like Taekwondo, but allows leg kicks, sweeps/throws/takedowns, and ground fighting. I wish there was someone here to organize a few tournaments like that. Would that be more to your tastes? I'd let my students spar with these rules but I don't have a matted surface area yet and I don't particularly want 13 year olds doing breakfalls on tile, especially in a sparring situation where it's a little less controlled. Judo breakfalls in sparring hurt enough on a mat.

Any change that allows the use of a larger part of the TKD spectrum of techniques would be an improvement. Punches that actually score, both to the body and the head, just for one, very simple change.
TKD is not so much a ground fighting art, but allowing sweeps and throws with the chance to follow them down for a strike (and a score) is another option.

The inability to effectively use the hands while sparring is, in my opinion, the single biggest weaknes of the WTF ruleset.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Any change that allows the use of a larger part of the TKD spectrum of techniques would be an improvement. Punches that actually score, both to the body and the head, just for one, very simple change.
TKD is not so much a ground fighting art, but allowing sweeps and throws with the chance to follow them down for a strike (and a score) is another option.

The inability to effectively use the hands while sparring is, in my opinion, the single biggest weaknes of the WTF ruleset.

Hands can be used quite effectively but generally as a timing tool rather than a point scoring move.

The HKD ruleset i mentioned allows 20 seconds on the ground I think, basically enough time that one needs to have a submission locked in as they hit the ground. Not positive on strikes being allowed.

 

[puunui]

It is still an unalterable fact that the rules for WTF sparring allow the use of only a tiny fraction of what TKD has to offer. And that is sad.

No, that is the genius of the taekwondo pioneers to differentiate it from everyone else, which allowed for the development of taekwondo kicking to the highest level.

 

[puunui]

Any change that allows the use of a larger part of the TKD spectrum of techniques would be an improvement. Punches that actually score, both to the body and the head, just for one, very simple change. TKD is not so much a ground fighting art, but allowing sweeps and throws with the chance to follow them down for a strike (and a score) is another option.

Sounds like taekwondo doesn't need to change to suit you, but rather you need to switch to another art or group that accommodates your wants and desires, like karate or ITF Taekwon-do. If face punching is what you want in sparring, there are many other groups willing to accommodate you. That might be more productive than complaining about the art that you do practice. If you want a humvee, then buy a humvee, rather than complain about mercedes or acura not having things that a humvee has.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sounds like taekwondo doesn't need to change to suit you, but rather you need to switch to another art or group that accommodates your wants and desires, like karate or ITF Taekwon-do. If face punching is what you want in sparring, there are many other groups willing to accommodate you. That might be more productive than complaining about the art that you do practice. If you want a humvee, then buy a humvee, rather than complain about mercedes or acura not having things that a humvee has.

As a matter of fact, the Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school we're with suits us just fine, in part because it does not follow the WTF sparring ruleset.

I realize that you're convinced that the sun rises and sets at the command of the Kukkiwon/WTF, and that anything put forth by either of those groups is, by definition, perfect and the Final Word, but, shocking as you may find this, not everybody feels that way. Some actually think that there is room for improvement.

In short, taekwondo suits me just fine. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are not taekwondo. They are merely part of it. And imperfect parts, at that.

 

[puunui]

As a matter of fact, the Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school we're with suits us just fine, in part because it does not follow the WTF sparring ruleset.

Then why are you complaining? You don't hear anyone complaining about what your school does.

I realize that you're convinced that the sun rises and sets at the command of the Kukkiwon/WTF, and that anything put forth by either of those groups is, by definition, perfect and the Final Word, but, shocking as you may find this, not everybody feels that way. Some actually think that there is room for improvement.

Actually I do not think that at all. What I am convinced of and can appreciate is the incredible genius of the pioneers in creating taekwondo, including but not limited to its kicked oriented competition model.

In short, taekwondo suits me just fine. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are not taekwondo. They are merely part of it. And imperfect parts, at that.

if you say so.

 

[mastercole]

Any change that allows the use of a larger part of the TKD spectrum of techniques would be an improvement. Punches that actually score, both to the body and the head, just for one, very simple change.
TKD is not so much a ground fighting art, but allowing sweeps and throws with the chance to follow them down for a strike (and a score) is another option.

The inability to effectively use the hands while sparring is, in my opinion, the single biggest weaknes of the WTF ruleset.

The biggest weakness of the WTF rule set is it forces the practitioner who competes to perfect their individual training schedule in order to be the best at kicking, punching, stepping, dodging, clashing, covering, timing, distance, will power, strategic thinking, deception, etc.

This weakness forces practitioners to achieve their highest potential in order to even survive through the various levels of WTF competition, it's a life commitment. So many who try WTF competition realized they have to focus on that skill set with a Zen like commitment. At that point most realized they do not have that type of commitment to Taekwondo and drop out of competition.

The weakness is that it is very difficult to achieve the depth of skill, knowledge and experience to be the best at kicking, punching, stepping, dodging, clashing, covering, timing, distance, will power, strategic thinking, deception, etc.

It is very easy however to create excuses for not being the best at kicking, punching, stepping, dodging, clashing, covering, timing, distance, will power, strategic thinking, deception, etc.

 

[leadleg]

There were a number of punches thrown, and some of them were excellent. But not a single point scored with hands. Not one. Including one punch that hit Mr Lopez hard enough to hear the impact in the stands. You couldn't hear the kicks landing anywhere near as solidly. But no point.

And I agree with those kids. WTF sparring uses a teeny tiny portion of what TKD has to offer. The ruleset is sad.

It always amazes me when someone thinks they hear or see better "from the stands" than the judges sitting right on the boundries. You think the kicks at this tourney were not as hard as the punches because of the sound? I believe sometimes punches are not scored because its hard for enough judges to see the trajectory and exactly what part of the hand is connecting with the hogu. I think the rule set is spot on. Punching to the face, kicking the groin etc is not what I want to do in sparring, save it for self defense class. It is much more difficult to NOT punch, hold, grab,push, sweep etc. than it is to use them.