Tae Kwon Do v. Karate?

[opr1945]

I have been watching utube videos from fighting competitions for both Tae Kwon Do and also Karate. I am pretty new at this but to my untrained eye I did not see much difference. So can someone enlighten me as to the difference?

According to google 70 million people world wide practice Tae Kwon Do. While 100 million world wide practice Karate!

 

[MuayJitsu]

Taekwondo is Korean, karate is Japanese

 

[opr1945]

LOL. well I knew that much. But watching the videos the movements looked pretty similar to me. But thanks.

 

[opr1945]

FWIW:
Of the 70+ million people who practice Tae Kwon Do 4 million are black belts, 5.7%.
Of the 100 million who practicew Karate 3.5 million are black belts, 3.5 %.

(again from google, you results may differ)

 

[isshinryuronin]

While I may ruffle a few TKD feathers, I will maintain that it is a form of karate. In taxonomy terms (class, order, family, genus, species) I would certainly say it's in the same family, if not, genus.

If one looks at the forms/kata of the various genus/species of karate: goju, shorin, shito, isshinryu, kenpo and shotokan, they are recognizably different. But in tournament competition it's often hard to tell one from the other. Competition sparring is its own species, "sport" and so all these styles conform to a large degree to the rules and structure of the ring.

TKD tournaments have their own sparring rules, often giving different values to particular scoring techniques which affect the kind attacks and tactics used. It will be obvious it's a TKD tournament.

When TKD guys fight in open tournaments along with the karate stylists I listed, their look will also conform, at least a bit, as the rules and scoring will generally be different. So, in some cases, they may look like TKD guys and in other cases may be indistinguishable from all the other styles there. And then, each fighter will have their own personal style of fighting.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Of the 70+ million people who practice Tae Kwon Do 4 million are black belts, 5.7%.
Of the 100 million who practicew Karate 3.5 million are black belts, 3.5 %.

Any deductions/theories for this difference in percentage?

 

[opr1945]

i'll state the obvious, at the risk of offending 4 million people, one is easier or quicker to obtain?

 

[MuayJitsu]

i'll state the obvious, at the risk of offending 4 million people, one is easier or quicker to obtain?

Not at all. It entirely depends on the club you train at and the instructor you have. Stop worrying about meaningless statistics (that are probably fake anyway) and just go train

 

[HighKick]

I have been watching utube videos from fighting competitions for both Tae Kwon Do and also Karate. I am pretty new at this but to my untrained eye I did not see much difference. So can someone enlighten me as to the difference?

According to google 70 million people world wide practice Tae Kwon Do. While 100 million world wide practice Karate!

Pay close attention and see if you can tell what kind of tournament match you are watching. For example, at sanctioned WT/KKW TKD tournament is going to look very different from a Shotokan, open or even an ITF TKD tournament, relative to sparring.
The forms in KKW are unique due to the crazy high kicks. And while you will see high kicks from ITF, their forms will look clos(er) to Japanese/Okinawan style forms.
Look for the tournament host to get a feel for the type of tournament.

 

[isshinryuronin]

i'll state the obvious, at the risk of offending 4 million people, one is easier or quicker to obtain?

Since the other 2 possibilities are either TKD attracts more proficient students, or they have more effective teachers, both of which seems less likely, I think you're correct based on the data you provided.

This in no way reflects on the students or teachers or the art itself, but rather the system of grading and the goals and expectations of the rank. I think the commercialization of the art and the high percentage of kids (and perhaps the sports aspect) have skewed the bar to make 1st degree black generally easier to obtain that some other TMA.

Just as girls grow faster than boys at around ages 10-14 with the boys catching up later in the teens, it's possible this same type of thing happens in TKD as advancement continues post 1st degree. Not sure on this. And it should be recognized that individual variations (of school and student) exist so over-generalizing can be a mistake.

Regardless, all this is irrelevant to the practitioner who is striving, sweating, enduring, enjoying, developing and learning on his journey through the art. While rank has its place in the scheme of things, it must be kept in perspective and not over-shadow what really matters.

 

[Buka]

Having ranks in both I can confidently say it’s like everything else in Martial Arts….

It depends on the school.

 

[dennis63]

I'm glad you posted this thread.

To your untrained eye, the application of these styles in a tournament have many similarities. That's because when the techniques are applied, they do have many similarities. People who are trained in one art or the other will be able to quickly identify the practitioner as their own, or different from them. (I can instantly recognize a karateka as SKA or JKA by where they place their pulling hand when they do a block or a punch.)

I've often thought that all martial arts have more similarities than differences. In all martial arts, we evade or block our opponent's attacks and use our hands, feet, knees and elbows to block, punch, strike, kick or throw the opponent. Certain elements are universal. (Moving with your hips, for instance.)

Just like the rest of the world, the people who've developed these systems, attached nomenclature to them and teach them have highlighted the differences in those systems to set their method apart from the others.

Sometimes this is for truly well-intentioned and altruistic reasons. (Tradition, an honest belief that their system is better and a desire to pass on this "better" version to others, etc.). And sometimes it's just marketing.

I would suggest that the numbers of people (worldwide) practicing these two arts are directly related to: 1) the numbers of people who have that specific cultural identity who practice that specific art; and 2) the amount of marketing done by the different systems targeting populations who are not of that cultural identity.

I would not dare hazard a guess as to the numbers or percentages of black belts in each. There are too many variables.

But it is a valid question -- How long does it take to get black belt in your style? I'm guessing time (and the age at which most practitioners start) both have something to do with it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

TKD is more kicky than punchy. Karate is about 50/50. TKD is bouncy bouncy, which tournament karate people have picked up on, but bouncy bouncy is not really a thing in self-defense.

 

[isshinryuronin]

TKD is more kicky than punchy. Karate is about 50/50. TKD is bouncy bouncy, which tournament karate people have picked up on, but bouncy bouncy is not really a thing in self-defense.

In self-defense there is no time for bouncing around, I agree. This is a tournament thing; the same in regard to karate's 50/50 split on kicks and punches. Shotokan style, i.e. kata, is maybe 60/40 favoring hands. For most Okinawan karate styles (non-sport) I'd say the split is 80/20 as it stresses close-in fighting.

 

[HighKick]

LOL. well I knew that much. But watching the videos the movements looked pretty similar to me. But thanks.

I think if you watch some WTTKD specific matches versus Karate matches you will see quite a difference.
This is all part of the 'big plan' to make KKWTKD unique.

However, it you watch some traditional or ITF TKD matches, they will look rather similar to Karate.

There are several versions of TKD out there so painting them all with the same brush usually leaves one inaccurate.

 

[Hanshi]

Having practiced both TKD and Karate for a long time and having black belts in both it's just my general observation that they are not very different. Think about it; a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick and so on. Once you can do a TKD kick you have no problem doing a proper karate kick and certainly not after a tiny bit of coaching. I've even gone back and forth between them and it was all seamless.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Having practiced both TKD and Karate for a long time and having black belts in both it's just my general observation that they are not very different. Think about it; a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick and so on. Once you can do a TKD kick you have no problem doing a proper karate kick and certainly not after a tiny bit of coaching. I've even gone back and forth between them and it was all seamless

Southern kung fu > proto Okinawan karate > Okinawan karate > Japanese karate > TKD (Korean karate).
..........1800...................................1850.......................................1890.............................1930................................1985

I think the above timeline of system evolution is a good (rough) estimation, the dates after 1800 representing when the system subjectively came into its own as a unique art, distinct from its predecessor. Yes, TKD started sooner, but previously was still much like Shotokan so I allowed an extra couple of decades for TKD to develop its own differentiating flavor.

The main point however is not the evolutionary timeline, but evolutionary distance. IMO, each step as listed is equally (more or less) different from its predecessor. It has been a step-by-step progression as one system flowed into the next.

If one is to say which is most different from its ancestor, I don't think it would be TKD, but Japanese karate as institutional teaching and sport competition (a fairly sudden and impactful evolutionary stimulus) weighed heavily on its development as a style. One can say TKD is a completely different kind of thing from karate for identity purposes, but physically it's just another step on the continuum. That's not a bad thing. It's true for all the other systems I listed above as well. We're all in the same family.

 

[HighKick]

Southern kung fu > proto Okinawan karate > Okinawan karate > Japanese karate > TKD (Korean karate).
..........1800...................................1850.......................................1890.............................1930................................1985

I think the above timeline of system evolution is a good (rough) estimation, the dates after 1800 representing when the system subjectively came into its own as a unique art, distinct from its predecessor. Yes, TKD started sooner, but previously was still much like Shotokan so I allowed an extra couple of decades for TKD to develop its own differentiating flavor.

The main point however is not the evolutionary timeline, but evolutionary distance. IMO, each step as listed is equally (more or less) different from its predecessor. It has been a step-by-step progression as one system flowed into the next.

If one is to say which is most different from its ancestor, I don't think it would be TKD, but Japanese karate as institutional teaching and sport competition (a fairly sudden and impactful evolutionary stimulus) weighed heavily on its development as a style. One can say TKD is a completely different kind of thing from karate for identity purposes, but physically it's just another step on the continuum. That's not a bad thing. It's true for all the other systems I listed above as well. We're all in the same family.

You are roughly 20-years off on the TKD date, and there are distinctly different derivatives of TKD. The style(s) closer to Okinawan karate are quite similar. The latter style (WT/KKW) is quite different.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You are roughly 20-years off on the TKD date, and there are distinctly different derivatives of TKD. The style(s) closer to Okinawan karate are quite similar. The latter style (WT/KKW) is quite different.

20 years in what direction? If earlier:

Yes, TKD started sooner, but previously was still much like Shotokan so I allowed an extra couple of decades for TKD to develop its own differentiating flavor.

If later (2005) then you're saying TKD still much resembled Shotokan in 1985 and had not yet come into its own as a unique system. I'll leave it to the TKD experts here to debate this point.

As I said, the main point was not the timeline, but the line of significant divergence from its ancestor. Again, this is subjective. I am aware that TKD has been changing in recent decades as it searches for its own identity and will say it's no longer just a variant of Shotokan but its own unique style, as separate from Japanese karate as that is from Okinawan karate.

 

[Fungus]

I have been watching utube videos from fighting competitions for both Tae Kwon Do and also Karate. I am pretty new at this but to my untrained eye I did not see much difference. So can someone enlighten me as to the difference?

As has been said, the preference for kicking and therfor the difference fighting stance is an difference. If you prefer fancy flash kicks, and lots of jump kicks, tae kwon do is more like it.

One instructor in kyokushin that commented my personal fighting stance, asked if i were perhpas secretly a "tae kwon do" guy?

Well heck no, but the explanation is my preference to certain kicks, that are fired faster from a more sided stance, all stances has pros and cons. Tae kwon do is more similar in their stance fo point karate, than to kyokushing or muy thai, partly because leg kicks aren't allowed in point karate competitions nor TKD.