Sword & Hammer, Obscure Wing

[Touch Of Death]

Trust me it does make a BIG difference in your head. I also have always challenged the notion of 'point of origin' having anatomical efficacy - and so did Parker Sr. "Point of origin" is a relative term that has been corrupted to mean a "linear line to the target."

Or it could mean you have realized what moves can be performed from where you find your hand at any given time and what moves you will have to get to another starting point. Are you suggesting its Ok to thrust when your hand is across your body? I will conceed that if your hand is not at your hips or shoulders its probably better to get them there before your next move, but why is it so hard to imagine that the outward handsword can be easily turned into the lead hand in B1a. you need only disturb his angle of entry. Provided I stepped off the line of attack, I already didn't get hit, I can still tag the guy by striking through his punch.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Or it could mean you have realized what moves can be performed from where you find your hand at any given time and what moves you will have to get to another starting point.

If all you deal in is "motion' then it doesn't matter. I do not subscribe to that methodology per my teacher.

Are you suggesting its Ok to thrust when your hand is across your body? I will conceed that if your hand is not at your hips or shoulders its probably better to get them there before your next move,...

I have not suggested how, but at least you realize "linear point of origin" is not always a good idea.

but why is it so hard to imagine that the outward handsword can be easily turned into the lead hand in B1a. you need only disturb his angle of entry. Provided I stepped off the line of attack, I already didn't get hit, I can still tag the guy by striking through his punch.
Sean

I'm not quite sure what you're speaking of. Try to not make assumptions as much as possible. Your insertion of "B1a" assumes I know what that is and perform it the same as you were taught. Chances are, like everything else, it's different for me. It's "not hard to imagine," I simply don't always agree because my philosophy is rooted in the physical sciences that are not hypothetical, unlike "motion" concepts unrelated to the physical vehicle that must propel it.

Keep in mind, that my livelyhood is rooted in the "physical apprehension" (most of the time unwilling) of individuals for incarcration so my "laboratory" gets a lot of testing material.

Let's keep it simple sir. Clearly you are a "thinker" (sp?) so let me say that the answer is always; "It depends." Every circumstance is anatomically different in its complexity and the physical formula required for maximum effectiveness reflects the complexity. A simple movement of a finger can change the structural integrity of your entire body; positive or negative. Guaranteed. Success or failure can hinge on something that small. So the "training vehicles" or techniques train the body HOW to move because it will take a lifetime to begin to understand. At least then you are functional and can perform without trying to figure it out on the fly. Therefore, techniques must be practiced correctly. The concept of the "what if" is so disruptive to that process that its actually counter-productive and can never ever lead to the real higher levels of learning.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If all you deal in is "motion' then it doesn't matter. I do not subscribe to that methodology per my teacher.

I have not suggested how, but at least you realize "linear point of origin" is not always a good idea.

I'm not quite sure what you're speaking of. Try to not make assumptions as much as possible. Your insertion of "B1a" assumes I know what that is and perform it the same as you were taught. Chances are, like everything else, it's different for me. It's "not hard to imagine," I simply don't always agree because my philosophy is rooted in the physical sciences that are not hypothetical, unlike "motion" concepts unrelated to the physical vehicle that must propel it.

Keep in mind, that my livelyhood is rooted in the "physical apprehension" (most of the time unwilling) of individuals for incarcration so my "laboratory" gets a lot of testing material.

Let's keep it simple sir. Clearly you are a "thinker" (sp?) so let me say that the answer is always; "It depends." Every circumstance is anatomically different in its complexity and the physical formula required for maximum effectiveness reflects the complexity. A simple movement of a finger can change the structural integrity of your entire body; positive or negative. Guaranteed. Success or failure can hinge on something that small. So the "training vehicles" or techniques train the body HOW to move because it will take a lifetime to begin to understand. At least then you are functional and can perform without trying to figure it out on the fly. Therefore, techniques must be practiced correctly. The concept of the "what if" is so disruptive to that process that its actually counter-productive and can never ever lead to the real higher levels of learning.

Doc, if you mean the correct way to do sword and hammer is exactly a chop to the neck followed by exactly a hammer fist to the groin, then I must respectfully disagree. Its all closest weapon to closest target while remaining within the bounds of logic (short people shouldn't reach for a tall person's neck). I enjoy discussing these subjects but we can't see what we are talking about so I'll back away for now. Til we meet again.
sean

 

[Brenwulv]

On one hand you say you're good enough to control the strike to the throat, but on the other, not good enough to actually hit it and would "accidently" hit something else.

No, you miss read or probably I didn't type clearly. You said in a 'heat of battle' situation it's hard to control how hard you strike. I said, then it's also likely you'd miss what you were aiming for. If you can pull the strike you should also hit what you aim for. Wasn't saying one or the other.

And yes, given the level of aggression prescribed in the technique you WILL go to jail. I've booked a few myself. I only emphasize this to change your mindset with regards to how society deals with these incidents. There are some schools that quite wrongly teach "life and death responses" to non-life threatening "possible" attacks. Our society looks upon these things quite harshly, and placing yourself in a position to possibly kill or seriously injure someone for placing their hand on your shoulder is not acceptable. Please consider this.

I'm sure you're right on this. If someone simply placed a hand on my shoulder and I strike their throat, I screwed up big. However, if they are just placing a hand and trying to intimidate as you've said earlier, there's really no need for a technique. There's no imminent threat, so why would I try to hit them? It'd be better to dissengage and try to talk it out, while getting hands up to cover incase something starts.

Seems like you think I'm going to try and kill anyone who touches me. No, not even close. In fact, I'm going to be in law enforcement at some point so I realize a need for reasonable force.

Okay, let's say this, there is a menacing quality to the attack that warrants striking (which is outside the ideal phase teaching that is commonly taught). Otherwise, as I said, I see no real need for a technique.

Well sir, if you are striking upward you are right, but you cannot strike the throat from there. Not withstanding attempting to strke from this angle is ANATOMICALLY WRONG for any target, and repeated practice will cause damage to the shoulder over time. Guaranteed!

I never said my strike is coming up vertically to the throat. Would do no good contouring his body like that. I guess this is what you mean by anatomically wrong for a strike and I agree. It would arc slightly to get to around a 45 degree angle to enter on. Neither parallel to a strike coming in, nor to the target I'm trying to hit.

Joel

 

[Nick Ellerton]

Well sir, I agree but you also gave him your centerline and most significantly, destroyed all of your structural integrity with that step.


Correct; Yours!

Well in anatomical terms, we have some problems here. (Anatomy at its terms are very complex) Power is a relative term, and to trade off perceived "power" for a breakdown in anatomical structure negates any benefit beyond a "sell out" maneuver that leaves you completely vulnerable should it fail.

I suggest you "challenge" your technique methodology in class as we do by having your "training partner" igore the first strike (tough guy, drugs, blocked, missed, whatever) and immediately attempt to smother and grapple you with their full body weight as is quite possible on the street. We challenge all of our movements constantly for structural effectives beyond "flailing blunt force trauma" which ultimately means the toughest/strongest wins. That's not "martial science" study.

Well sir! Can i ask your name because you are obviously well experienced in the art i am merely beginner trying to understand what i do and what i have been taught so thank you for the insight!

 

[Doc]

Well sir! Can i ask your name because you are obviously well experienced in the art i am merely beginner trying to understand what i do and what i have been taught so thank you for the insight!

Well sir, I started studying in 1956, and I've picked up a thing or 2. Finally I'm beginning to understand some things, but everyday brings a new lesson and a new challenge. If you check my profile (click on "DOC") you'll see my name is Ron Chapél. Pleased to meet you.

 

[Doc]

No, you miss read or probably I didn't type clearly. You said in a 'heat of battle' situation it's hard to control how hard you strike. I said, then it's also likely you'd miss what you were aiming for. If you can pull the strike you should also hit what you aim for. Wasn't saying one or the other.



I'm sure you're right on this. If someone simply placed a hand on my shoulder and I strike their throat, I screwed up big. However, if they are just placing a hand and trying to intimidate as you've said earlier, there's really no need for a technique. There's no imminent threat, so why would I try to hit them? It'd be better to dissengage and try to talk it out, while getting hands up to cover incase something starts.

Seems like you think I'm going to try and kill anyone who touches me. No, not even close. In fact, I'm going to be in law enforcement at some point so I realize a need for reasonable force.

Okay, let's say this, there is a menacing quality to the attack that warrants striking (which is outside the ideal phase teaching that is commonly taught). Otherwise, as I said, I see no real need for a technique.



I never said my strike is coming up vertically to the throat. Would do no good contouring his body like that. I guess this is what you mean by anatomically wrong for a strike and I agree. It would arc slightly to get to around a 45 degree angle to enter on. Neither parallel to a strike coming in, nor to the target I'm trying to hit.

Joel

Interesting. Nice to know "point of origin" curves. I stand corrected sir on my misinterpretation of your comment. Please forgive me.

 

[Doc]

Doc, if you mean the correct way to do sword and hammer is exactly a chop to the neck followed by exactly a hammer fist to the groin, then I must respectfully disagree. Its all closest weapon to closest target while remaining within the bounds of logic (short people shouldn't reach for a tall person's neck). I enjoy discussing these subjects but we can't see what we are talking about so I'll back away for now. Til we meet again.
sean

Oh no Sean Sir. Even in the methodology I was taught variations in weapons are utilized to produce different effects. It depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. You see we don't even hit the groin because it's not always an effective target. Although sometimes the effects are immediate, often in the heat of battle it is not, with the effects coming sometime later. Sometimes a few seconds to minutes, to the next day.

When I say precise, I mean HOW the body moves from one place to another is critical. Then choosing the weapons and targets, based on the desired effect all while moving with maximum structural integrity for your entire body, and having maximum energy at your disposal with addition of being in control of the space at all times. We create our own posture and the posture in the attacker. Our own for the positive, and negative for the attacker. We fortify ourselves, shielding vital points anatomically while opening theirs.

Thanks for the exchanges sir.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh no Sean Sir. Even in the methodology I was taught variations in weapons are utilized to produce different effects. It depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. You see we don't even hit the groin because it's not always an effective target. Although sometimes the effects are immediate, often in the heat of battle it is not, with the effects coming sometime later. Sometimes a few seconds to minutes, to the next day.

When I say precise, I mean HOW the body moves from one place to another is critical. Then choosing the weapons and targets, based on the desired effect all while moving with maximum structural integrity for your entire body, and having maximum energy at your disposal with addition of being in control of the space at all times. We create our own posture and the posture in the attacker. Our own for the positive, and negative for the attacker. We fortify ourselves, shielding vital points anatomically while opening theirs.

Thanks for the exchanges sir.

Doc,
What ever the attitude, so is the response. :asian: Thank you I see what you are talking about. I still think offense and defense are more of an ethicle question, but I see what you are saying.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Doc,
What ever the attitude, so is the response. :asian: Thank you I see what you are talking about. I still think offense and defense are more of an ethicle question, but I see what you are saying.
Sean

Well sir here we happen to agree. You're right. Ethics not withstanding, I can place a finger on a nerve on your body and have you "think" one way with no effect. Then after asking you to "think" another way, that same nerve will become open and accessable and cause you pain. Same body, same spot, same pressure. "Think" one way you feel, "think" another you don't. The mindset reconfigures subtle aspects of human anatomy and can affect you positively or negatively depending on intent and activity.

 

[kenpo_cory]

The other technique is a mystery to me, because I don't understand its description, and I'm not certain I want to. At any rate, techniques that rely on "eye rakes" and "throat strikes" are not a part of our curriculum. There is no martial skill in sticking your fingers in someones eyes, or even hitting them in the throat as some prefer in "Sword & hammer." Any kid on the playground can do that without training and such actions are obviously at the elementary level in "martial" study.

So are you saying you don't teach eye rakes or throat strikes at all?

 

[Doc]

So are you saying you don't teach eye rakes or throat strikes at all?

Yes I am saying exactly that. Groin smashes, eye pokes or rakes, and throat strikes require little skill. That is why they are a mainstay of "quickie" women's self-defense courses, and commercial self-defense schools. They are not a part of what I was taught, nor do I include it the course curriculum I teach, which is very effective and destructive on demand without those elements. Ed Parker Sr. had a lot more to offer than that.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Yes I am saying exactly that. Groin smashes, eye pokes or rakes, and throat strikes require little skill. That is why they are a mainstay of "quickie" women's self-defense courses, and commercial self-defense schools. They are not a part of what I was taught, nor do I include it the course curriculum I teach, which is very effective and destructive on demand without those elements. Ed Parker Sr. had a lot more to offer than that.

I'm sure he did. But did he disregard those movements? I'm sure they would be very useful in certain situations. To each his own I guess. :asian:

 

[Doc]

I'm sure he did. But did he disregard those movements? I'm sure they would be very useful in certain situations. To each his own I guess. :asian:

He removed those things from my teaching, with the understanding they were only neccesary if I failed to learn what I was being taught, in which case I would revert to unskilled responces. He called them "Tiger moves." "Be a Dragon." he said.

If you have never studied any other way it is hard to understand. The true professor, master, guru, etc is supposed to have skill beyond poking someone in the eye, snashing the throat, or hitting the testicles. Commercial American kenpo is an anomoly, not the norm in the much older Chinese arts. By Mr. Parker's own design, it is a "commercial product" and does not represent the depth of his knowledge or skill. Most will concede he had such knowledge, but the question is why isn't that knowledge reflected in what some consider his only art. The answer is a simple one. It can't be taught in a commercial environment because it requires teachers with the knowledge and constant scruitiny and correction of that teacher on everything. He was the only one that knew, so what he created was out of necessity, and a great gift in itself to the world. But it's A Parker kenpo, not THE or ALL of Parker Kenpo evidenced by many of His earlier students who don't teach it and never have.

 

[Seig]

Doc,

A point many have failed to realize, and I am not sure you have made it clear, is that in the LE community, anytime that you get into a physical altercation that requires more than controlling and detaining an officer is automatically in the wrong at first glance in the eyes of the law. What this means to those of you that have never been in LE or trained for it is this, if I hit someone while performing my duties, I had better be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I was justified in doing so. In 90% of those instances, the officer is wrong. Therefore, someone like me that can easily cause permanent blunt force trauma is likely to wind up with both a criminal and civil suit for striking someone. When you strike someone in the throat, you are showing intent to apply deadly force, you must be able to defend your actions. This is not a case of innocent until proven guilty, but quite the opposite. As a professional LE member, one must follow a different set of laws and guidelines, which necessitates Doc's methods. Also, when you are dealing with someone who is in an altered mental state, a lot of what we are taught can and will cause permanet damage up to death, without the person ever being consciously aware of pain. I am sure Doc has come across people with compromised nervous systems or extreme nerve damage that has caused him to have to alter his methods from time to time. For example, at a class I was attending, the instructor tried to demonstrate a come along with my left arm, as I have no nerves on the back side of my left arm, he was not effective with the hold he was using, he was forced to quickly apply something else. The most valuable lesson any of us in professions that may require our MA skills can learn is the ability to think clearly and quickly under stress. That is why we do thousands of repititions.

 

[Les]

Doc,

As a professional LE member, one must follow a different set of laws and guidelines..... QUOTE]

Seig,

It's interesting you should bring this up when just yesterday here in the UK the national news was dominated with a situation where a police officer is putting the boot into a suspect while other policemen hold him down.

The episode was captured on CCTV footage and shown on tv.

Looking at it from a professional (rather than Martial Arts) point of view, I counted four seperate incidents of exessive and (in my opinoin) unlawful use of force.

Also seen ot the cctv tape is the fact that three other police officers turn and walk away while this is happening.

I'm sure they witnessed a crime being comitted, and as police officers they were duty bound to intervene on the victims behalf.

Sorry this is off track of the thread.

Les

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, just for a slightly-different take--the eye-pokes, rakes, shots to the throat, etc., are in the techniques, at least as overtones or adaptations. I mean, why is "5 Swords," called "Five Swords," anyway? Or look at, "Striking Serpent's Head..." where's the half-fist going?

But these strikes are also available through the sets and forms that are so often despised. There, they can be worked on--and worked on, which is even better, in conjunction with the development of control. There's also a way in which divorcing such strikes from their immediate and obvious employment allows some of us to learn, ssince we have a sort of detour around the emotional content of such weapons.

I do know one student who's been taught a lot of rotten stuff--gouges, rakes, knee kicks, etc., right from the git-go. For physical reasons, they can't run and will only ever develop a certain degree of fine control and coordination. So for them, effective self-defense means...

Otherwise, I agree. Enough of the macho posturing about pulling out and eye, crushing the larynx, etc...how many of the readers have ever even seen somebody with a closed-off airway, conscious and struggling to get a breath? Show of hands?

Beyond the legal implications, there are such things as moral considerations. I agree with Doc and Seig.

 

[Nick Ellerton]

Well sir, I started studying in 1956, and I've picked up a thing or 2. Finally I'm beginning to understand some things, but everyday brings a new lesson and a new challenge. If you check my profile (click on "DOC") you'll see my name is Ron Chapél. Pleased to meet you.

That is a lifetime! I am wearing a hat at the moment and i am taking it off and it is a pleasure to meet you sir.

 

[dcence]

Enough of the macho posturing about pulling out and eye, crushing the larynx, etc...how many of the readers have ever even seen somebody with a closed-off airway, conscious and struggling to get a breath? Show of hands?

Hand up here -- not a pretty sight. So much for light contact sparring...

 

[Nick Ellerton]

It is evident that what some stries result in some are against. I have never seen anyone with a crushed larynx nor do i wish to see anyone with a crushed layinx, but moreso i do not wish to inflict this upon someone. So y study the art some might ask? it is enjoyable, teaches self dicipline and more importantly teaches us to respect others. But i can safely say that something like that happening would not be pretty and as you said sir so much for light contact sparring the person responsable for this i would not have liked to see the repocussions of their actions.

cheers.