Succesfully fighting two attackers: myth or reality?

[loki09789]

I agree with you about the happiness through habit thing. I hope I didn't come off saying that observation skills can be honed to a JEDI mind reading level of skill - No way. We seem to be on the same wave length that it is possible to reduce the opportunity for someone to see us as targets through good habits and observing situations. It is by no means a catch all.

I like the comment about happiness though. I use to tell students who talked about self defense classes stirring up their fear of getting attacked and I responded with something like your locking the door post. I do these tactical habits because they are good for me now, not because I am afraid.

It sounds like a contraction but I see it as freedom and joy through discipline and habit. You take charge of the things you can, evaluate the past to learn from it- not for criticism and self abuse, and do the best you can along the way.

Sorry this is off topic, but it is and interesting tangent! Next time it will be more on topic
Paul Martin

 

[loki09789]

sounds like a contradiction even - some english teacher!

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by loki09789
I agree with you about the happiness through habit thing. I hope I didn't come off saying that observation skills can be honed to a JEDI mind reading level of skill - No way. We seem to be on the same wave length that it is possible to reduce the opportunity for someone to see us as targets through good habits and observing situations. It is by no means a catch all.

I like the comment about happiness though. I use to tell students who talked about self defense classes stirring up their fear of getting attacked and I responded with something like your locking the door post. I do these tactical habits because they are good for me now, not because I am afraid.

It sounds like a contraction but I see it as freedom and joy through discipline and habit. You take charge of the things you can, evaluate the past to learn from it- not for criticism and self abuse, and do the best you can along the way.

Sorry this is off topic, but it is and interesting tangent! Next time it will be more on topic
Paul Martin

I wasn't trying to point my post at you, I just wanted to say a couple of things.

I think we are on the same wavelength, habit is good, its just kind of sad when you run into those who let this "fear" overtake their lives. Thats when I think its too much.

7sm :asian:

 

[loki09789]

back on the actual physical attack...

I think that one advantage - and there aren't many - to the single defender is that multiple attacks are confusing to the attackers as well. Luckily I wasn't in the mix, but I remember in High School I went to a party that got out of hand (wrong crowd, lifestyle choice...) and one of the guys I knew who took martial arts beat up four guys because they didn't know how to coordinate their attack and got in each other's way.

So much depends on the environment and the attackers, but on a strategic level, I think that it is simpler - not easier by any means, but simpler - to coordinate your own body to fight off the attack if you are trained well than it is to coordinate multiple bodies that you have no control over to make a successful attack on a single point/person. More room for fumbling and mistakes that could lead to the single person finding an escape route.

Consider how much time and effort goes into military fire and maneuver training so that multiple attackers move well together as well as sports where coordinated 'attack' is drilled and drilled. When I first started playing hockey, I would constantly be bumping into my own team mates because I was out of position or didn't know where they were going.

Paul martin

 

[bob919]

i dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet bt a great strategie to use when fighting multiple attackers is to use one as a shield by positioning yurself so only he can hit you and al the others are behind him then pound on him and start it all over again.

you cant afford to have mercy when it comes to multiple attackers remember hey wouldn't show mercy to you

 

[Mark Lynn]

Reading this thread got me thinking of an incident that happened to me back in the mid 80's.

My wife, her brother and I all went to a mud drag event in a arena in Waco TX. As we were walking out we were making our way to our car that was in a part of the parking lot (area) where the light was very poor. We were walking in between the cars trying to get to our car when a car stopped in front of us in the main isle (it was stop and go and the car was in line to try and work it's way out of the exit). I went around the rear end of the car with my wife right behind me and my brother in law (B I L) a little further back.

Next thing I hear is someone yelling at a guy with a purple shirt, my awareness heightened (a fight where) and I started trying to figure out who was yelling and where the possible fight was. My brother in law comes up and we continued to my wife's car.

When we get there I go around to the driver's side and my wife and B I L go around to the passenger's side when a much bigger guy (than I) comes from the front and slams his fist on the hood of the car cussing at us and threatening to kick our @#%$# and I'm like whoa!

Trying to figure out is going on and get out from inbetween the van on my left and my wife's car on my right I started to back up and tried talking to the guy to calm him down. When I was hit and knocked up against the side of the car ripping off the dirver's side mirror.

Some how I managed to get to the rear of the car and I think I hit one of them. But the last I remembered was "Well hit the Bi#%.

 

[Mark Lynn]

When I came to I was clutching my wedding ring in my hand face down in the mud behind the car. My wife and her brother weren't around. I got up and went and opened the car door placing my wedding ring inside and then I was going to hunt the guys down and hurt them. Because all I remembered was the guy saying hit the bi#@ refering to my wife.

I started looking for them (her) when I made it to a gate and some guards/police saw me and I think everything got weird where I didn't know what I was doing there or anything. All of the sudden my wife comes up and gets me and we report the incident to the guards/police. (It was like being on some kind of a drug trip cause I was out of it and everyone seemed distorted) Anyway we went back to the car and we got wittnesses statements etc. etc. and it was from talking to them and my wife that I later learned what had happened.

There were two of them and one came around from behind the van and hit me upside the back of the head as I was trying to talk the guy in front of me down. He proceeded then to hit my B In L who was coming around from the other side of the car when this guy hit me. My B In L got hit and went down as I was getting up from hitting the side of the car and made it to the rear of the car where I think I Thai kicked one in the leg (nothing much behind it though) cause someone said "Oh a fighter".

The one who hit me got me from behind and pulled me to the ground where he held me in a sitting position where the first guy went to kicking or hitting me. My wife came up from behind the guy who was holding me down and tried to kick him in the nuts as he was bent over holding me down. All she ended up doing was ticking the guy off by kicking him in the butt. Which is when the guy trying to kick my face in told him to hit her.

He turned around to hit her when (she felt) he recognized that he was going to start beating on a women and maybe that was going over the line (like they hadn't crossed that already). Anyway they took off without hitting her. My B In L got up and she took off after them.

 

[Mark Lynn]

My wife knowing that I had been in the martial arts for 5-6 years I think at the time and seeing me get my butt kicked all over the dojo mat by my instructor figured that I could take a beating and keep on ticking (like Timex), so she left me in the mud and took off after the guys to get their license number. As they ran back to their car, I guess their date who had been put in charge to drive took of and moved the car. So they looked all over the place for it while my wife running around behind them and hiding behind cars and people keeping an eye on them. Seriously she would run up to a group of people act like she was part of the group as these guys searched for their car and then take off after them again.

Finally they found their car and my wife got their license #. And then she found her brother and they came looking for me where they found me at the gate with the guards wondering around. I was covered in mud and looked rough.

So with a license # and a good description of the assailents car and them. Wittnesses names and phone numbers in hand we went to the emergency room to get checked out. We both came out alright, me with a slight concussion. My B In L was moaning while we were sitting in the waiting area "Why did this happen? I thought you knew martial arts. Why would they do this to us?" I told him we came out pretty good. "Look be thankful your sister wasn't raped or hurt, and nobody was shot or stabbed."

 

[Mark Lynn]

Reporting this to the police was another lesson in what can happen in a assault.

First my wittensses didn't want to talk to the police except to back up that they attacked me and I didn't do anything to them. In fact in talking to them (the wittness and his family) the guy said he was scared in how violent the attack was and he feared they might come and get him. The police detective (whomever) who was investigating the assault when my B In L and I showed up to talk to him about the assualt said he had investigated who owned the car and talked to them. He said one of us hit their car.

I said "what? nobody hit their car" "They hit me/us" Well it seemed that my B In L when we came out from inbetween the cars as they were parked (or rolled to a stop) in front of us (we came at a 90 degree angle to the car) that while my wife and I walked around the back of the car. My B In L hit his knee in the rear quarter panel (behind the passenger rear tire) and slapped his hand on thier roof/trunk of their car. He finally admitted this while we are talking to the detective.

Supposedly he damaged their car and this justified our beating in their eyes (and the police's really). When I brought up the fact that I had not touched their car and I was the first one who was assualted and that I was the one who took the beating and I still wanted to press charges against them. I was informed that they wanted to file counter charges against us and that it was better to let it go. And that was it. Over done.

This had a lot of lessons for me and I relate to people in self defense classes as to what can happen when when an assualt takes place.

Mark

 

[OULobo]

Sounds to me like you should have pressed the issue and pressed charges anyway. Damage to property in any instance is not justification for assult and battery, especially if you didn't do the damage. I know some people prolly won't like this, but this is an example of when a lawyer will have a better idea of what is best, not a police officer.

Of course, this did happen at a tractor pull.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by OULobo
Sounds to me like you should have pressed the issue and pressed charges anyway. Damage to property in any instance is not justification for assult and battery, especially if you didn't do the damage. I know some people prolly won't like this, but this is an example of when a lawyer will have a better idea of what is best, not a police officer.

Of course, this did happen at a tractor pull.

Well I did go to a lawyer after the police didn't want to do anything about it. He wanted to sue the Heart Of Texas Colusium (which was where it happened) for poor or inadaquate lighting in the parking area. But he had no intention of going after the people who assualted us because the money wasn't in going after them it was in going after the HoTC.

To be honest I dropped it after that. I wasn't going to sue HoTC when they had nothing to do with the matter but only to line this guys pockets.

 

[7starmantis]

The results of that story are familiar, as I was jumped by two guys who entered my car as I was stopped. I've told the story before, but during the year it took to hit the court room, I was asked if I had done anything to piss them off in trafic before the attack. I told them not that I was aware of. I was then told that if I had flipped them off (which I hadn't) that it would most likely be ruled as double aggressivness or something to that matter, and would result in the case being thrown out.
I couldn't believe that if someone in America fliped off another person they could legally beat the crap out of them. Doesn't make sense, but then when has our court system made sense?

7sm

 

[OULobo]

I don't mean to miff any of the LEOs on the forum, but often times it seems the police just don't want to do the paper work or think they know what the situation is. There is a reason we have a court system in the US, so the enforcers (police) don't get to judge, the people do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you tell the police you want to file charges, I don't have a problem with them telling their opinion, but you still have the right to demand charges be filed and they have the legal duty to investigate. If you find a lawyer that has his targets set on big venue money, get another lawyer. They work for you, let them know that. I think if I were in that situation I would thank the officer for his opinion and then ask him for the paperwork needed to file the charges. Aggressive words or gestures and damage to property are still no cause for violence. Just look at how the "I fear for my life" argument holds up in court now-a-days. I doesn't, you still have to prove real threat or intent of harm. "He started it" only works with your siblings, lethal force and equal levels of retaliation.

 

[Bod]

Earlier in this thread I was asked about my situational awareness after ending up in a place surrounded by a large number of thugs, and recieved well meant suggestions that this might be related to lifestyle choices.

I was in a strange and (known to me) dodgy area of South East London. I had got on the wrong train and ended up there, and the next train was in an hour, after an hour long wait in a dark rail station. If I was in the same situation today, I would have got a cab out of there when I had the opportunity. That's because now I can afford one.

At the time I was a student, living in a nearby, and only slightly better, part of London on a rent of £15 (say $25) a week. I couldn't afford any more than that so I had little choice about where to live. When I had my first opportunity to get a cab out of the place I knew I would be very short of money (for food and stuff) if I did so. After a fruitless search for a bus home I was returning to the rail station when turning a corner I almost ran into the guys mentioned in the earlier post.

I had already figured out that if I got into trouble I'd hot foot it to the cab office as soon as possible, which is why I didn't turn and run. They were between me and relative safety.

If I remember rightly I had to cycle to college for the next week, to make up for the money spent on the cab fare. Dangerous on London roads.

Now I have my degree, and sufficient spare cash to make some 'lifestyle choices'. Still, with the close proximity of poor and wealthy areas in London, you can only be so safe.

 

[loki09789]

the lifestyle/situational awareness comments were not directed at any individual post or poster. It was a general checklist of things that I take into consideration personally and have been able to use fairly well to avoid the majority of problems in my life.

As far as lifestyle choices and location and such, of course money is a huge issue. How many reported cases of violent crime do you get in suburban/better income housing versus other areas? Very few relatively speaking. Compare the number of massacres and 'ethnic cleansing'/religious freedom fighters actively operating in third world versus first world countries. When the money is good and quality of life is higher, fewer people will act up. Prosperity is not evil if you stay moral.

Within police circles they use the term the broken window theory. Basically, if the neighborhood is loaded with run down buildings and broken windows on houses and the yards are full of trash and overgrown, chances are there is little community pride/financial support and those living there don't care as much about where or how they get their money/thrills.

Paul Martin

 

[Bod]

I see where you're coming from and didn't take offense at your post. I just believe that, although the principle that 'lifestyle choices help to keep you safe' is true, the converse doesn't hold, i.e. 'If you were in a bad situation you are to blame', and I wanted to emphasise that point.

During the 39-45 war London was bombed extensively, each bomb taking out about 3 houses. The holes were filled with 'Bomb damage flats', low cost 3 or four story appartment blocks with typically 10 to 12 flats (U.S. = apartments).

On top of this around the turn of the last century, many housing charities set up blocks of apartments in estates, very close to better housing. The apartments were far better than the slums of the time, but as housing quality has risen, they are at the bottom of the heap.

These schemes were designed to avoid ghettoisation, and to some extent they have succeeded. Thus, most of London is poor areas interspersed closely with much wealthier areas, apart from the very centre that is, with its £2000 ($3000) per month rents.

That's the background I'm coming from, which is different from many towns and cities in the world.

Cheers,

 

[loki09789]

The converse of the lifestyle choice is not, in my opinion it's your fault if you get in a bad situation either. I do believe that you can stack the deck in your favor by using your head and making the best choices you can given the reality of your particular situation.

No one would blame a woman, dressed like a Britney Spears look alike, drunk and out of it at a house party where she doesn't know anyone away at college for being raped, but she could be accused of poor judgement that made the rape more statistically likely. Not blame as much as choice and accepting the fact that not all things just happen to us, we do exercise some control, though not total, over our lives.

Paul Martin

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Bushido
Not running away, fighting!

-Bushido

Yes, but idealy I would try to use my skill to make the best of it. If they were armed, then it would be a bad idea to even try.

If they both attacked simultaniously then it would be an unlevel playing field in their favor.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

http://www.peterboroughet.co.uk/ViewArticlemore2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=733652

WORLD karate star Clifton Findley had part of his ear bitten off when a brawl broke out in a Peterborough pub.

 

[mandirigma]

Originally posted by loki09789
...one of the guys I knew who took martial arts beat up four guys because they didn't know how to coordinate their attack and got in each other's way.

...

This is a great point. Perhaps someone already mentioned it, but with multiple opponents I immediately think of stacking.

Luckily, most bad guys don't quit their jobs at NASA to lead a life of crime. Unless they are well rehearsed and organized, you stand an ok chance of taking the initiative (OODA loops). Aggressive lateral movement both moves you off the line of force and might enable you to stack up the BGs. (To stack them up in a line in front of you, thus requiring at least one of the BGs to go over his buddy to get to you.)

To be tactically sound with/against a firearm, stacking can be a literal life-saver. Even unarmed, however, this tactic makes a great deal of sense. Stacking gives you more of an opportunity to attack one person at a time while attenuating the BGs' chances of simultaneous attacks.

Granted, if they are coordinated, they'll probably be able to effect their pincer movement. But you never know.

If the attackers aren't totally committed, then our total committment to our survival, coupled with our pre-planning, can make a difference.



:asian: